Charles Alexander

GEORGE GILLIAM:     [00:00:00] Okay.  It is July 28th, 2022.  We are getting ready to interview Charles Alexander, more frequently known locally as Alex-Zan.  We are Phyllis Leffler, Lorenzo Dickerson, and me, George Gilliam.  I’d like to note our reliance on the Jefferson Schools Oral History Project interview transcripts, which we used extensively for research.  Do you remember that?  It was about 15 years ago, little more than that -- almost 20 years ago.

ALEX-ZAN: [00:00:49] I think [Anne Carlem?] may have mentioned it.

GG:  [00:00:51] Yes, yes.

AZ:  [00:00:52] (inaudible)

GG:  [00:00:53] It looks to me very thorough.

AZ:  [00:00:56] I was in Richmond in Henrico [00:01:00] County at the time.

M1:  [00:01:01] Your mic.  You’re fine.

GG:  [00:01:04] Okay.  What was your date of birth?

AZ:  [00:01:10] July 2nd, 1952.

GG:  [00:01:18] You’re almost exactly 10 years younger than I am.

AZ:  [00:01:21] Uh-huh, okay.

GG:  [00:01:22] I’m July of ’42.

AZ:  [00:01:24] Right, right.

GG:  [00:01:28] Your parents.  What were their names?

AZ:  [00:01:31] William Alexander and Elizabeth Alexander.

GG:  [00:01:37] Sorry, what’s her name?

AZ:  [00:01:39] Elizabeth.

GG:  [00:01:40] Elizabeth.

AZ:  [00:01:43] She remarried, and she’s today Elizabeth Taylor.

GG:  [00:01:48] Okay.  And what did they do?

AZ:  [00:01:53] He worked at a university, and later on went into the Marines, and [00:02:00] my mom did various works.  She worked at Paul Victorious for a number of years, and from then, she went to the Microbiology Department.

GG:  [00:02:06] Like framing and things?

AZ:  [00:02:08] Yeah.

GG:  [00:02:08] Yeah.

AZ:  [00:02:09] Then later on, she retired from the University of Virginia Microbiology Department.

GG:  [00:02:20] And where did they live in the city?

AZ:  [00:02:22] Eleventh Street, northwest.

GG:  [00:02:32] Now, do you remember in order which schools you attended?

AZ:  [00:02:37] Oh, no question.  The elementary school was Venable, and from Venable to Walker, and, of course, the first year of Walker School, we attended a half a day because they was building Walker, so we attended Jefferson from 8:00 to 12:00, and students on the south side of the [00:03:00] city at Buford, they attended from 12:00 to 4:00.

GG:  [00:03:05] So Venable, Walker, Buford?

AZ:  [00:03:10] No.  Well, no, I didn’t attend Buford.  I’m just saying that Walker -- from Walker to Lane.

GG:  [00:03:17] Oh, okay.

AZ:  [00:03:17] I’m just saying that Buford, we had split days, the middle school.  But I never went to Buford.

GG:  [00:03:28] Did your parents, when you were a wee child, did they engage in protests?  Did they participate?

AZ:  [00:03:38] No.  My mom was closely affiliated.  She knew Mr. George Ferguson.  We knew the Ferguson family.  My grandmother was closer to the George Ferguson family, so that’s my mom was close to the Ferguson family and was familiar with Mr. Eugene Williams, so that’s how the family got tied into the [00:04:00] integration schools.

GG:  [00:04:02] And when you were young and started being an old boy, but young man, were you conscious of protests?

AZ:  [00:04:20] Not really.  We knew the NAACP.  In later years, we knew some of the incidents that happened around Charlottesville.  But really, became a little more conscious from middle school, and definitely by high school.  In high school, definitely, yeah.  By ’67, ’68, we had the walkouts in high school, and, of course, nationally, they had the riots -- 1968 -- around the country.

GG:  [00:05:00] Did you have the family influences -- the familiarity -- with the fact that people did protest for things they --

AZ:  [00:05:12] Oh yes, oh yes, sure.  And we had, even growing up, the family had a connection -- I came from a family, a legacy of giving.  My grandmother used to iron the shirts of the University of Virginia professors, and the family used to feed and assist the law students at the university.  They lived on Tenth Street at that time, our law students attending university.  So families in that area would always embrace the university students, particularly the law students, because they lived on Tenth Street.

GG:  [00:05:50] So getting now to the real substance of what we’d like to ask you about, who were the Charlottesville Twelve?

AZ:  [00:05:59] Charlottesville [00:06:00] Twelve was 12 African American students that first integrated Charlottesville schools, but they were part of a wider network, which also included the Norfolk Seventeen, Warren County Twenty-Three, and they was five students from Arlington.

GG:  [00:06:19] I’m sorry.  Norfolk was how many?

AZ:  [00:06:21] Norfolk Seventeen, and Warren County was 23, and in Arlington, VA, there was five.  We were all a part of the same network, and Charlottesville was 12.  That was part of the court decision in extension of the Brown vs. Board.

GG:  [00:06:43] So these several organizations or groups of people, did they stay in touch?  In other words, did you know some of the people who were --

AZ:  [00:06:53] I think on one or two occasions, we met in Richmond for an event [00:07:00] but it wasn’t really a connection and stay in contact monthly or yearly correspondence or things like that.

GG:  [00:07:12] And how were those made and put together?  Who would’ve --

AZ:  [00:07:15] Well, I think at that time, the last one -- I’m not sure who were the governor?  And we met at the governor’s mansion, and he had a little gathering, and the different sectors from Warren County, Arlington -- it might’ve been around the time or before the time at the university.  He did the documentary -- Locked Out -- what is his name?  Political --

LORENZO DICKERSON:  [00:07:52] Sabato.

AZ:  [00:07:53] Larry Sabato, yeah.  I think it was before Larry Sabato did [00:08:00] Locked Out.

GG:  [00:08:03] That would’ve been in the ’70s.

AZ:  [00:08:05] No, Larry Sabato did the documentary in 2010, 2011.

GG:  [00:08:15] Oh, more recently.

AZ:  [00:08:16] Yeah, yeah, but I think somewhere in 2008, 2009, some of us got together, and I forgot the occasion, and we met in Richmond.

GG:  [00:08:29] Okay.  So who was the brains behind the Charlottesville Twelve?  Was it Eugene?

AZ:  [00:08:42] It was the NAACP.  Mr. George Ferguson was the president, but if one were, say, maybe the foot soldier was Eugene Williams.  He did more of the legwork, [00:09:00] in terms of galvanizing and talking to the parents.

GG:  [00:09:10] And did you get to know Mr. Ferguson?

AZ:  [00:09:13] Oh yes, oh yes, I knew him very well.

GG:  [00:09:17] And Mr. Williams, was Mr. Williams who sort of pointed you out as someone who would be good in this position?

AZ:  [00:09:31] Well, actually, he gave the African American community families an opportunity that those who wanted to be what was called plaintiffs, in terms of integrating the schools.  Some parents decided that they wanted to be involved, and some parents didn’t.  I think one of the things -- we lived on Eleventh Street, so literally you could see Venable School from my [00:10:00] backyard or back porch.  And I asked my mother one time how come my brother, who was in the third grade at that time, how come he didn’t go to Venable?  And she said he didn’t want to, which implied that I didn’t have a choice or call.  She decided that the best education for me was to go to Venable, so that’s how she joined the other plaintiffs.

GG:  [00:10:28] So that would’ve been -- how old were you for that?

AZ:  [00:10:32] Six.

GG:  [00:10:33] You were six, so that would’ve been in ’58.

AZ:  [00:10:37] It was ’58, uh-huh.

GG:  [00:10:44] Did your parents discuss with you?  Or did they simply tell you, “This is the way it’s going to be”?

AZ:  [00:10:51] No, there really wasn’t no discussion.  I mean, back then as opposed to today, you got a lot of back and forth, but if parents say, [00:11:00] “You go to Swift Creek or Snake River,” that’s where you went.  (laughter) It wasn’t a dialogue back and forth.  But evidently, now, if you were to talk to some of the older students -- I was one of the youngest, me and Maurice Henry and Virginia Dixon.  We were the youngest.  Now, if you were to talk to some of the older students that attended Venable, it probably was a little more communication and dialogue with their parents.  But it just wasn’t no discussion.  That was the school I was going to.  She decided I was going to attend.  My friends attended the all-Black Jefferson Elementary.

GG:  [00:11:43] Did you feel separated from your friends?

AZ:  [00:11:45] No, I went to school at Venable, and of course, in the evening, afternoon, I was with my friends.  I think one of the main things -- and I’m still not sure.  I asked David this morning [00:12:00] in reference to the book -- I’m still looking for a photo of Mrs. Miller, who was my second grade teacher, and she was like an extended grandmother.  She was white.  She was most instrumental.  There were only two Blacks in the whole building -Mr. Swift and Ms. Brine -- and one worked in the cafeteria and one was a custodian, and they were like extended family members.  But Mrs. Miller was like an extended grandmother because she would -- me not knowing until later years -- she would send little notes home in my backpack to my mother to share the type of day that I had.

GG:  [00:12:45] Was that helpful?

AZ:  [00:12:47] Well, I didn’t know.  So my mom felt it was helpful.  I do remember an incident where I got into a little back and forth with [00:13:00] two white students, and it was a pushing and shove -- no real fight, per se -- and they went home and they told their daddy, and the daddy came to school looking for me, and Mrs. Miller blocked the door before having him to enter into the classroom, when he came to search me out.

GG:  [00:13:24] What other teachers did you take a special liking to?

AZ:  [00:13:27] There was Mrs. Miller.  There was the gym teacher named [Mr. Beard?] and I can’t think of her name.  Well, this was at Venable.  I know I became very close to Jeannie Baliles, but that was in the eighth grade.  Her husband went to the law school, and later became Governor Gerald Baliles.  Her and I became [00:14:00] real close.  That was eighth grade in Walker.

GG:  [00:14:03] Yeah, she taught there for all three years while he was in office.

AZ:  [00:14:07] Yeah, they said I was her pet.

GG:  [00:14:10] Yeah.

AZ:  [00:14:11] They said I was her pet student.  I mean, we communicated real well.

GG:  [00:14:17] Why Lane rather than Burley?

AZ:  [00:14:22] Well, it was a continuation of going to Venable, Walker, and then onto Lane.  It wasn’t even a discussion.  Now, my brother, he didn’t go to middle school.  He went from Jefferson to Burley.  And I don’t know why, but I just stayed on that course from Venable, Walker, to Lane.  Of course, Burley closed in ’67.  [00:15:00] That was the last year.  And I attended Lane -- I think it was ’67, ’68.

GG:  [00:15:09] Did some of your friends give you any grief over going to the white schools?

AZ:  [00:15:17] No, no.  And that’s where I was telling Mr. Dickerson how we were so familiar with Vinegar Hill, because when we went to the movies, we went through Run Street -- that was before West Haven was developed -- and we went through what was the City Yard, which now is Public Works.  And then we went through Williams Street and Irving Street, which is now Wendy’s, McDonald’s, in that area.  And then we’ll go up --

GG:  [00:15:48] Right there at the foot of the hill.

AZ:  [00:15:50] -- or we would go up and come down Main Street, and that’s when we came down Vinegar Hill, going to the Jefferson and Paramount Theater, [00:16:00] going to the movies.  And that’s why we’re real stuck on, in terms of we only knew Vinegar Hill as that business district -- that area from the [Cole?] building up to Fourth Street, where Inge’s store was.  Now, before I went to Venable, I was on Fourth Street in [Ms. Cora Duke’s?].  She was a kindergarten teacher.  She was a couple doors up from Commerce Street.

GG:  [00:16:30] Looking at the sports and your relationship with sports, you were a good athlete, should’ve played varsity basketball --

AZ:  [00:16:39] Played seventh grade basketball at Venable.  We used to play down at the Armory.  And I always liked to equate going to Venable -- and I’ve had to remind people that coming from a family and a legacy [00:17:00] of giving that I had good character and good manners.  It didn’t come from going to Venable.  That was in place before I attended Venable.  And I think I always had a way of communicating and smiling and being nice, and I think that sort of made some of the taunts and wording -- I got along pretty good with students.  Had one good friend named [Gray Barbie?] that lived on Rugby Road.  His dad was an architect -- a professor at the university -- and he invited me to stay over, and my mom didn’t think it was a good idea, but he was a good friend of mine.

GG:  [00:17:46] Mrs. Leffler has a question.

AZ:  [00:17:48] Sure.

PHYLLIS LEFFLER:    [00:17:48] I have a quick question.  If we go back to Venable for a moment, it sounds to me like you would’ve been in that first year, [00:18:00] when it was mandated to desegregate the schools.  You said you would’ve been going in 1958.

AZ:  [00:18:07] Well, actually, what happened was in 1958, it was in the Daily Progress -- and I have the article -- that in May of 1958, my mother and me and Eugene Williams, we did an early registration, and in the article, it was stated like Eugene was my father (laughs) but actually, he accompanied my mother and me for early registration.  Later on that afternoon in May of ’58, Regina Dixon’s grandmother brought her for early registration.  This was in ’58, and in September of ’58 is when the governor decided that he would lose his right arm before Black students and white students would go in school [00:19:00] together, so then the whole court process took place, and they closed Lane and closed Venable in September ’58.

PL:  [00:19:10] So what’d you do in September ’58?

AZ:  [00:19:13] Well, what I did, I went to a Ms. Cooper in ’58, who was on Lankford Avenue.  That’s where I went mostly of the first grade because I would’ve been in the first grade.  The court decision came in February of 1959, when Judge Paul in Harrisonburg said that was it.  Massive resistance --

GG:  [00:19:43] -- was declared unconstitutional.

AZ:  [00:19:45] Right, that this is it.  Schools must open immediately.  This is February ’59.  So Norfolk opened immediately, Arlington, and Warren County.  Charlottesville asked for what was called a stay.  [00:20:00] So Charlottesville requested a stay, and could they wait until September ’59?  And so they allowed Charlottesville a stay on the condition that they have education for the students because they didn’t have a place to go and schools was closed and what have you.  So we went into the administration building, which is now the Venable Annex.  That’s where we went from February until June.  And then in September of ’59 is when we walked up the steps and we literally, actually went into the building.

PL:  [00:20:43] So in the previous six months, you said you went to Ms. Cooper.

AZ:  [00:20:49] We went to Ms. Cooper.  I went to Ms. Cooper. from that September until February.

PL:  [00:20:58] But who was Ms. Cooper?

AZ:  [00:20:59] Ms. Cooper? [00:21:00] was sort of like a daycare, childcare educator, and she taught out of her home -- a basement or what have you.  So I’ve been told over the years, they say some of the other students did schools in basements and various other parts, as far as education when schools closed.

PL:  [00:21:21] So when you went to her, were other Black students there with you?

AZ:  [00:21:25] There was other Black students, but not the students that were the Charlottesville Twelve.  I’m not sure how my mom chose out Ms. Cooper.  And then in February, that’s when we went into the administration building.  All of us was in the administration building.

PL:  [00:21:43] Mm-hmm.  Did you have any feelings about that at the time?

AZ:  [00:21:46] No.  We was just in separate rooms, and we had an instructor teacher there and what have you.

PL:  [00:21:57] Yeah.

GG:  [00:22:00] I’ve got a runaway phone that seems to not want to be turned off.  You said before -- on the basketball JV versus varsity -- what you said several years ago was, “I couldn’t play varsity basketball because I was a militant and they cut me because they thought I was going to be a threat to the team.  They thought I was going to control the team, so I played in the recreation league years ago.  We were called the Wrecking Crew, and we did some wrecking crew things.  Three years ago, we got together and we reinitiated the Wrecking Crew.”  Could you tell us a little bit about the Wrecking Crew?

AZ:  [00:22:56] The Wrecking Crew was probably what was first -- well, [00:23:00] today it would be considered a game, and we were neighborhood youngsters, and somewhere around 1967, ’68, is when we organized and did some things and got together.  We got the name Wrecking Crew from Freddy Murray who worked in Parks and Rec, and at that time at Washington Park -- we all hung out at Washington Park -- and one day we was coming in the park, and Freddy Murray said, “Oh Lord, here come the Wrecking Crew,” so that’s how we got the name the Wrecking Crew.  Our mentor was a James Fisher who came down in 1968 from New York, and that’s just amazing because this weekend is the African Arts Festival.  We did the first African Arts Festival in 1969 [00:24:00] in Washington Park.

GG:  [00:24:05] So there is more to the story than it first appeared, really.

AZ:  [00:24:11] Oh yes.

GG:  [00:24:13] Who was Cherry Pie?

AZ:  [00:24:15] Cherry Pie was actually -- this is a picture of him, right there.  And actually, I see him the other day, and we got into some stuff.  We got into some tussles and threw some bottles, and we --

GG:  [00:24:37] Towards him or towards other people?

AZ:  [00:24:38] No, no, towards other people in the community and the police, and just had some little scruffles and things, going back and forth.  We were well-known in the community.

GG:  [00:24:52] Free Cherry Pie?

AZ:  [00:24:55] Yeah, that’s when he went to (laughs) somebody mentioned that to his sister [00:25:00] the other day, that folks was thinking they was looking around for some free pie.  But anyway, he had gotten incarcerated, and we wanted him released, of course.

GG:  [00:25:13] Did he get released?

AZ:  [00:25:15] Eventually, yeah, he did get released.

PL:  [00:25:18] Why was he incarcerated?

AZ:  [00:25:20] I’m not exactly sure at that time, because we did so many juvenile trivial stuff, so I’m not exactly sure.

PL:  [00:25:33] But he’s still around in Charlottesville?

AZ:  [00:25:35] Oh yes, oh yes.

PL:  [00:25:37] Do you think he’d be willing to talk?

AZ:  [00:25:38] No, no, because Lorenzo had asked me a while back.  No, he --

PL:  [00:25:45] He won’t talk about those years?

AZ:  [00:25:46] No, nah.

GG:  [00:25:49] What was the Wall of Respect?

AZ:  [00:25:51] Wall of Respect is what we erected at Jefferson School in 1969, and the Wall of Respect was [00:26:00] in that room adjacent, when you go into the Carver Recreation Center.  You go down the steps to the right.  Over to the left, there was sort of like a (inaudible) room, and we created a Wall of Respect and had the Martin Luther King, the Malcolm X, the Marcus Garveys, and what have you, and eventually, the city decided they were going to whitewash it and take it down.

GG:  [00:26:25] What year was that?

AZ:  [00:26:27] Sixty-nine.

PL:  [00:26:30] So the very same year it went up, the city decided to get rid of it?

AZ:  [00:26:35] Parks and Recreation decided.  I’m not sure what point they decided to take it down.

GG:  [00:26:43] Byrd Leavell --

AZ:  [00:26:46] Uh-huh.

GG:  [00:26:48] -- is one person we’ve talked to, and he appears to be kind of a moderate.  Did you have any interactions with him?

AZ:  [00:27:00] No negative interaction.  He was a year ahead of me in school, but the transition came on my part from Walker to Lane.  Actually, a lady did a book called The Bus Stops Here, and in the book, she was chronicling three cities that was going through integration -- Charlottesville was one of them -- and in her book, by not calling me by name, she couldn’t understand how I was a militant because I had went to school initially with white students, so what was my problem?  (laughs) I shouldn’t have no problem.  But anyway, the militancy and the transition, a lot of it came from Walker when we got down to Lane High School, and that’s when we had the walkouts, the confrontations, and what have you.  And that’s when -- I think it was tenth grade when I got suspended from school -- [00:28:00] Cherry Pie and another gentleman named [Roger Richardson?] -- and it was stated that I was considered a threat to the Virginia school system at that time, and I tell students today, on the way out of the building in the back of Lane High School -- which is now the county office building -- we actually threw our books in the dumpster.  What happened after that -- and that’s why a story I share with young folks today, what’s called IMC -- In My Corner -- we had folks in the community that supported us and family and what have you that got us back on track, and subsequently, we got back in school, and we all graduated.

PL:  [00:28:43] Do you remember why you were suspended?

AZ:  [00:28:46] Not exactly.  We did so much.  We was in fights and we held up stuff in the building and we just was excited [00:29:00] to fight.

GG:  [00:29:00] So you earned it.  You earned it.

AZ:  [00:29:04] Yeah.  Yeah, we pretty much earned it.  And we sort of decided and wanted Black history courses and how we were treated, and not all the Black students was with us, and a few was on the other side.  But we were determined, and so they sort of looked at the three of us as primary figures, being in the middle of a lot of the friction and action that was going on.  So that’s probably one of the reasons why I didn’t -- they decided that I wasn’t a good fit to go to play varsity basketball.

PL:  [00:29:48] Can you just tell me again who were those three?  “The three of us,” you said.  So you?

AZ:  [00:29:53] Roger Richardson, George Frye, and Charles Alexander.

PL:  [00:29:56] Right.

GG:  [00:29:58] The underground newspaper, [00:30:00] The Blast, what was The Blast all about?  Who started that?

AZ:  [00:30:05] I’m not familiar with The Blast.  That doesn’t --

GG:  [00:30:11] Not guilty.  (laughs)

AZ:  [00:30:12] Yeah, I’m not familiar with The Blast.  Is any names connected with The Blast?

GG:  [00:30:21] No.  The question, when I saw it, they were trying to figure out who was behind it.

AZ:  [00:30:28] No, it didn’t come from our perspective, and we became a part of a community group, which was led by [James Fisher?], and later on, as I was saying about the riot that was on Main Street, we became Society of African American Culture.  We became New Birth Community Workshop.  And out of the Wrecking Crew, I probably was one of the ones that just stayed with it after high school in [00:31:00] doing things.  Some of the others sort of participated, but they weren’t as active.

GG:  [00:31:07] The Reverend Henry Mitchell.

AZ:  [00:31:10] Yes?

GG:  [00:31:11] He was active.

AZ:  [00:31:13] He was active.  His church was on the corner of Preston and Tenth Street, and when we walked out of Lane High School, we walked up to his church.

GG:  [00:31:26] Were the other local ministers involved?

AZ:  [00:31:36] Kind of inactive.  He was the primary minister.  There was Reverend Johnson, but the center point of our walkouts was with Henry Mitchell, and, of course, there was Drewary Brown.  He was [00:32:00] one of the community leaders.  But we didn’t really cater to who was leading and who were community leaders.  We decided when we were going to do something, and we did it.  We didn’t really look to leaders or --

GG:  [00:32:16] What were the major grievances?

AZ:  [00:32:20] Black history and studies --

GG:  [00:32:21] (inaudible) you didn’t have Black history.

AZ:  [00:32:23] -- at school, and just the treatment of students and the treatment by certain teachers that we felt wasn’t being addressed.

GG:  [00:32:32] Did your activities result in change?

AZ:  [00:32:38] A little, but it wasn’t much.  It wasn’t much.  They did bring in --

PL:  [00:32:46] You did get a Black history class.

AZ:  [00:32:48] Yeah, I was going to say, they did bring someone in from Richmond, and they also set up a whole economics (laughs) course for us to participate [00:33:00] in.  But they did bring someone in from Richmond.

GG:  [00:33:05] Could we get copies of these pictures?

AZ:  [00:33:07] Sure.

GG:  [00:33:11] Can we borrow these and have them scanned and --

AZ:  [00:33:13] Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.  You can borrow and scan them.

GG:  [00:33:17] Great.  It is 20 after.

AZ:  [00:33:21] Okay.  Did you want anything else?  Did you feel like you’ve covered?

GG:  [00:33:24] I think Mrs. --

PL:  [00:33:25] Yes.  I have a number of other things I’d like to ask.

AZ:  [00:33:30] Well, go ahead.

PL:  [00:33:31] Thank you.  You let us know when you need to cut, okay?

AZ:  [00:33:34] Okay, go ahead.

GG:  [00:33:36] He’s still smiling.

PL:  [00:33:37] Yeah, you are.

AZ:  [00:33:38] Oh, okay.  (laughs)

PL:  [00:33:39] Very impressive.  I guess I’d really like you to talk about the broader picture in those years -- if you can remember back to those years -- how you thought about race-based issues [00:34:00] in Charlottesville?  I mean, obviously you came from a community that was very much its own community.  You’re among the first to desegregate the schools, so among the first to go to schools with white kids, and then there’s clearly a certain point when you yourself become the subject of resistance, (laughs) in terms of being able to play on the teams, and then in high school, when you’re much more of an activist.

AZ:  [00:34:32] Activist, right.

PL:  [00:34:34] What do you remember about your feelings about race relations in this city?

AZ:  [00:34:42] Well, it was always a disconnect with race relations, and I remember the athletic director, Willie Barnett, at that time constantly reminded me that if I didn’t follow the rules of the Virginia [00:35:00] High School League, that I wouldn’t be able to participate in sports, and it wasn’t even an issue.  I sort of blew him off, that you do what you have to do and we’ll do what we have to do.  And so it wasn’t a thing that I was concerned about, whether I played ball or I had to change who I was to fit in to play ball.  Although I was a good ball player, it just wasn’t a central issue for me to do a transformation and to be the goody-goody boy there just to go along and get along.

PL:  [00:35:40] What were the rules of the Virginia High School League?

AZ:  [00:35:42] I’m not even sure what the rules were but he said (laughs) we certainly wasn’t following the rules.  I’m not sure what.  He never clarified.  Of course, it didn’t mean anything to us -- particularly me.  I was the only athlete.  [00:36:00] The other youngsters, they didn’t play ball, so it was more or less geared toward me, and he felt that I had just such a strong influence over students that I would carry that over, and I’m sure he had talked to the varsity basketball coach -- that sentiment would carry over into the varsity, and that’s why.  And the community really was upset.  Mr. [Rudolph Kerr?] was prominent in the community.  His sons had played at Burley and one had played at Lane.  But the community was really upset, and they really was thinking about filing a petition and what have you because they couldn’t understand how I was cut.  I mean, it wasn’t like I was a marginal player.  I was a major player, and potential of being an all-state basketball player.

PL:  [00:36:56] Yeah.  And do you remember how your [00:37:00] parents would’ve reacted to some of your activities?

AZ:  [00:37:04] Well, Mom sort of was always supportive of me and family, and it wasn’t a big issue whether I played for the recreation league or whether I played for Lane High School.

PL:  [00:37:18] Mm-hmm.  So one of the major themes of our project is about race and sports -- that’s what it’s called -- and we’re kind of exploring with people whether sports was a mechanism for building better race relationships or for helping in integration process in the city.  I’m wondering --

AZ:  [00:37:51] It may have been for some individuals.  Not in my case, because [00:38:00] sports, it just wasn’t an issue whether I played or not -- sports -- and coming together, we had certain thoughts about what changes needed to be made, and we wanted the changes to be made.  And so sports wasn’t --

PL:  [00:38:21] Do you remember going to athletic events at Lane High School?

AZ:  [00:38:25] Very few.

PL:  [00:38:26] Did you go to Burley High School --

AZ:  [00:38:30] Always.  It was always a strong connection with Burley.

PL:  [00:38:36] So you went to the football games?

AZ:  [00:38:37] We went to the football games.  Burley was such a strong institution with athletics, and particularly with our band.  We would be excited to go to see the band practice, much less perform.  (laughs) It was a treat just to see them practice.  And with the [00:39:00] Lane and Lane band and their clubs --

PL:  [00:39:07] It was peripheral.

AZ:  [00:39:08] Yeah, we didn’t really want to address that.

PL:  [00:39:13] So it sounds to me -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth -- but it sounds like you created your own network.

AZ:  [00:39:21] We really did, uh-huh, mm-hmm.  And it was a few students that sort of went through the mainstream and got into some of the clubs and organizations, but it wasn’t our interest to join clubs and organizations.

PL:  [00:39:37] Right.  Yeah.

GG:  [00:39:42] Lorenzo?

LORENZO DICKERSON:  [00:39:44] I just have a couple for you.

AZ:  [00:39:45] Okay.

LD:  [00:39:46] I’m curious if you remember the baseball teams that the men in the community played on and traveled around.

AZ:  [00:39:53] Oh yes, oh yes.  There was what was called the Squeeze-Ins, [00:40:00] and they played primarily down below Washington Park, and they would travel out to the various counties and what have you.  So it was a strong community network, probably even more so than today, and maybe integration probably had something to do with that -- it’s a little more scattered and more things opened up -- and the basketball team at that time was the Esquires.  The baseball team was the Squeeze-Ins and they would go to Covesville and different places and what have you.  So it was very much a communal type setting, more community -- the picnics, the hayrides, and what have you.  And I can remember, we cared less about other aspects, other parts of [00:41:00] the community, and that’s probably the reason whereas if one were to ask majority of natives in Charlottesville, they care less about the Robert Lee statue.  It wasn’t even an issue.  It could’ve stayed there another 200, 300 years -- all the statues.  It just never was an issue.  Didn’t bother folk.  It just wasn’t an issue.  We went on and did what we did and needed to do and what have you, and Robert E. Lee sitting up there, he was sitting up there.  Okay, fine.

PL:  [00:41:38] Is that because you didn’t much go to Lee Park?  Or was it because you just didn’t pay attention to --

AZ:  [00:41:48] Well, we knew Lee Park was there, but Lee Park wasn’t considered our park.  We looked at only Washington Park and Tonsler Park [00:42:00] and weren’t concerned with Lee Park.  Whatever Lee Park was, that’s Lee Park, and I was told somebody else used to go there and drink at the bottom of the statue and get a little tipsy, and used to challenge each other who would get up on the horse, which had to be some powerful drinks too.  (laughs) But they made a joke of it.  It just never was an issue with the community, except in the last, what, five to six years, it became an issue.  And that’s to say, we probably -- with the renaming of the library, most folks that I’ve communicated with in the library, they’re not concerned about what name you call something.  Me personally, I’m concerned about [00:43:00] getting children to read.  You change the name of the library and children ain’t reading, it doesn’t matter.  You can call it George Gilliam Memorial Library, they’re not going in the library to read.  The thing is to get children to read, and of course, reading is the basic fundamental foundation of everything.

LD:  [00:43:25] Do you remember the children playing football in the community and the beginning of the Turkey Bowl a little bit?

AZ:  [00:43:31] Oh yes, oh yes.  See, I lived on Eleventh Street.  Most of the Turkey Bowl was right behind Eleventh Street on the Venable field.

LD:  [00:43:43] A lot of folks have told me about -- there were golden glove fighters from Charlottesville.  Do you remember men in the community boxing?

AZ:  [00:43:55] Boxing.  Bobby Banks, [00:44:00] he had a club, and that’s why when Wes Bellamy a few years back decided to do a boxing club, it wasn’t the first.  Bobby Banks was one of the first that had the boxing club in Charlottesville, and he had some youngsters that was golden glove fighters.

LD:  [00:44:25] Do you remember where they practiced?  Did they practice?  Did they fight here locally?

AZ:  [00:44:32] Yeah, but I’m not exactly sure where they practiced.  I’m sure Bobby Banks would know, but yeah, he was one of the first to have that athletic group.

LD:  [00:44:49] Thank you.

GG:  [00:44:52] Do you have anything you want to add?

AZ:  [00:44:54] No.  Not in particular.  It’s --

GG:  [00:44:59] Do we get a [00:45:00] gold star for --

AZ:  [00:45:01] But in thinking, particularly with the Squeeze-, it was more of a community.  It was more close-knit, I think, back then.  We had social clubs.  Back in the ’80s, I did a minority resource guide, and we had about 45 social clubs -- city clubs -- and I think today, we may have three or four.  We had at least 40 -- 40 to 45.

GG:  [00:45:38] Wow.  What sort of community clubs?

AZ:  [00:45:41] Oh, these were primarily adults and young adults, and they would have block parties and different events, and [Ed Cobb?] was working, what have you.  We just had a lot of community activities, and I still have the guide with the clubs in it.  [00:46:00] Weston Social Club, the Toppers.  And today, probably three or four.  Of course, you’ve got some of the fraternities, sororities, but it’s not a network like it was back even in the ’80s and ’90s.

PL:  [00:46:27] So do you think that’s a consequence of integration?

AZ:  [00:46:34] Some, maybe, but I think a lot of it is -- and this is where the reading coming in and telling the stories and folks picking up the batons.  I mean, you take, for an example, the Elks.  We played for the Elks in 1969.  I mean, you look at the Elks today, they’re older members, and unless they bring in [00:47:00] some what is called new blood, it’s ceased to be, and I think that’s what happened to a lot of the clubs.  Folks get old.  We all get older, and unless we put a mechanism or something in place to continue, it’s going to cease to be.

PL:  [00:47:20] People communicate through social media now, right?

AZ:  [00:47:22] And people connect, and to me, it’s not a real connection.  When people say they’ve got friends, you really don’t.  You’ve got folks that you call friends, and in numbers, they may be friends, but you don’t know these folks.  You can’t call on these folks, yeah.  So that’s where that’s the society we’re living in now.  It’s not a place where folks really talk and communicate.  Their communication is on [00:48:00] a surface level, not even the person-to-person contact.  And this is why CYM DAY is very important just to get off that phone for a minute.  I took my mother up to the hospital yesterday, and it’s amazing.  An older white lady and I, we were sitting out front, and we was just talking about how nice it is just to sit and be still and observe the sunshine, the birds, your surroundings, and we really have gotten away from that.  Hopefully with the CYM DAY -- with that character -- we can get back to folks being still and being less having to be attracted and pulled for something 24/7.  I tell people -- people say, “Alex-Zan, I’m going to text you.”  I say, “Good luck.  I don’t text.  I don’t know how to text and I don’t want to know how to text.”  Now, granted, if I had children or grandchildren, probably they would’ve gotten me on that, but [00:49:00] that’s not the case.  So if you text Alex-Zan, you will not reach Alex-Zan.

GG:  [00:49:10] Thank you.

AZ:  [00:49:11] Okay.  Well, thank you.

 

END OF VIDEO FILE