Corlis Turner Anderson

PHYLLIS LEFFLER: [00:00:00] Today is September 28, 2021.  I am Phyllis Leffler, and we are doing an interview today with, let me make sure I do it right again, with Corlis Turner Anderson.  We are at her home.  And with me is Lorenzo Dickerson, a filmmaker who may also pose some questions as we go along.  So thank you so much for agreeing to do this.  It’s really --

CORLIS ANDERSON: [00:00:33] You are welcome, and welcome to my home.  I’m glad that you’re here. 

PL: [00:00:36] Thank you.  So I thought we might just start by asking you to just tell us a little bit about your childhood in Charlottesville.  And I have in mind things like where did you live?  What was your neighborhood like?  What kind of activities were you involved in as a child? 

CA: [00:00:54] Well, born and raised in Charlottesville.  I lived in the Henry Avenue [00:01:00] area, which is right across from Burley High School, Burley Middle School now, from a family of two siblings, I mean four siblings, two sisters and two brothers, mother and father.  My days, I think really was spent at Washington Park.  We’re a very close village.  I really have to say that, because even living on Henry Avenue, the other streets surround us, like Charlton Avenue or Concord Avenue.  Everybody knew everybody.  And so as a child, no matter what you did, your parents knew by the time you got home.  But I was very fortunate to live in that area and to be very active in Washington Park, which of course was the only park besides Tonsler Park, that we were able to go to.  [00:02:00] Great memories of that, because we were able to have a wading pool, which was wonderful.  Tennis courts.  We were really provided with very nice resources for that, only to find out, as I got older, that that property was donated to the city of Charlottesville, which is the old Charlottesville dump, the landfill.  So that was very interesting to find out, that my whole childhood, we played on an old landfill.  But we didn’t know it at the time.  But the property was donated. 

PL: [00:02:46] What does that mean to you, when you say you found out that it was an old landfill?  What is the significance of that? 

CA: [00:02:53] Environmental health.  I think of basically, that’s one of the things [00:03:00] that I feel strongly about.  Gauging the landfill, trying to see what chemicals are being released and everything.  And I had no idea.  To this day, I don’t even know if that was even done.  And so it was covered up, and we have a landfill right now in Scottsville that we know is very active.  And sometimes, it will go off.  And I always wondered, after I found that out, about Washington Park, if there was any radiation or anything that probably was leaking from the landfill.  But that was interesting to find out as I got older. 

PL: [00:03:48] Is that the park that was donated by Paul Goodloe McIntire? 

CA: [00:03:56] Yes.  Yes, it was.  

PL: [00:03:57] Right, so he’s a big name in the city of Charlottesville [00:04:00] for all sorts of reasons.  

CA: [00:04:01] Exactly.  The high school, McIntire High School was named after him.  

PL: [00:04:06] Right, he also donated the land on which our Confederate statues were placed and things of that sort.  And gave lots and lots of money to the university, as well.  So as you were growing up, what school did you go to? 

CA: [00:04:22] I attended Jefferson Elementary School on Fourth Street. 

PL: [00:04:26] Can you tell us a little bit about what that was like? 

CA: [00:04:28] Oh, I loved it.  I was very social.  I was Miss Socialite, my mother used to call me.  And I wanted to be involved in everything.  I was a majorette.  No skills for the band, unfortunately.  I tried that, but it didn’t work for me.  Carver Recreation Center’s connected onto Jefferson.  So the roller skating for Blacks at that [00:05:00] time, that’s where we’d roller skate.  So I was very involved with the roller skating and doing the different reviews for the parents.  I remember having one where we dressed up like Indians and came out there and roller skated around the rink.  I was in the choir.  The one thing I think I remember so much about that experience is just the different activities.  Every class had plays.  And to be . . . actually, I think I was totally shocked at most of the teachers that I had could sing.  And they would sing to the class.  And we felt like a unit.  I really felt like it was a wonderful experience for me. 

PL: [00:05:51] When you were a majorette, where did you perform?  In what context? 

CA: [00:05:56] Dogwood Parade.  And [00:06:00] actually, Calvin Cage was the band teacher for Jefferson.  And his wife, Barbara Cage, decided to have a majorette group.  And we were not part of the school, as far as the band.  But we were the school, as far as majorettes.  And I can remember my father driving the car, with the music connected, in the Dogwood Parade, going down Main Street.  And we were right behind. 

PL: [00:06:37] That’s great, yeah.  That’s wonderful.  So it sounds like you’re describing a pretty rich sense of community and engagement through schools, et cetera.  What about athletics at Jefferson?  Do you remember anything about athletic teams and Jefferson? 

CA: [00:06:58] None whatsoever.  Because [00:07:00] it was elementary, and then from Jefferson after sixth grade, it was to Burley High School.  

PL: [00:07:09] So there were no athletic teams. 

CA: [00:07:10] Not as far as I can remember. 

PL: [00:07:12] Okay, I guess it’s much later when kids’ soccer starts. 

CA: [00:07:16] Oh, it was, no.  Well, they had in the community, through the Parks and Recreation, they had baseball.  And so we did have summer leagues of baseball, but that was for boys only.  It was not for girls, even though I have to say I was a tomboy to a certain extent, because I used to play flag football and everything else with the guys.  And no, that’s what we did.  Everybody in the neighborhood, girls got, we just played together in those.  But there were no official sports. 

PL: [00:07:52] So what are your memories of growing up in Charlottesville in the midst of Massive [00:08:00] Resistance and desegregation?  Do you have specific memories of that?  Things maybe that your parents talked about, or that other people you knew --

CA: [00:08:10] As I say, I attended Zion Union Baptist Church.  And my minister was very involved with the NAACP and the resistance of Blacks being able to go into stores, to eat in different restaurants.  I can remember, slightly as a child, at the University of Virginia Hospital, seeing the sign, “Colored Only” for the bathroom.  But that’s as far, I mean, it’s just a really distant memory of that.  But I can see the sign.  And from there, just being involved as a youth with the NAACP, hearing how equal [00:09:00] was not what we were receiving.  The textbooks, what I remember was a year older than my counterparts would have.  But I grew up in a very strong family.  My father actually was very, very high for a Black male in this area.  And so he went to Ohio --

PL: [00:09:28] I’m sorry, you said he was very, I didn’t hear that.  Your father was very, did you say high?  Or something for a Black male.  Your father was very --

CA: [00:09:38] My father was very motivated, okay.  

PL: [00:09:42] Yeah, say it again so we hear the whole sentence.  Sorry, I shouldn’t interrupt. 

CA: [00:09:51] No, that’s fine.  I know, because all of a sudden, I lost my train of thought, and that happens.  My father was very, very motivated, very committed [00:10:00] to taking care of his family.  And so he left Charlottesville to go to Ohio, to Westinghouse, where he was trained as a technician as far as appliances.  And then he came back.  Unfortunately during that time, he was not hired because of the color of his skin.  So Westinghouse, along with a local appliance store here, had a contract where they would pay my father’s salary, part of my father’s salary if he could work for this person.  And he did.  And I’m very proud to say that, I guess it was junior high school, when my father opened his own business Turner’s Appliance and Refrigeration Service, and was known throughout [00:11:00] the community in Charlottesville and Albemarle County.  One of the stories I love most about him is that he worked on Anheuser-Busch van.  It seemed like Mr. Busch son or someone lived here.  And so when he would come on his Trailways bus, that’s how his mode of transportation was.  But my father, he wanted the best technician, and my father was called to fix some of the things on the bus at the time.  So he really had, my father was very determined.  And I think the five of us got that from my mother and my father.  Because my mother was a domestic.  And by the time my mother got to retiring age, she was working for Albemarle County Social Service.  So she slowly [00:12:00] fought the system to get better.  And so that has motivated us. 

PL: [00:12:07] I think you also, earlier, told me that your father worked at Farmington for families there.  Is that right? 

CA: [00:12:14] Yes, as far as his business.  Oh yes, he was very well-known in that community, that this was the person you get if you want your appliances fixed.  And he had a lot of clients within the Farmington, Flordon area, the Keswick area, which is horse country.  We had, when my father passed, we had very warm phone calls from these individuals, saying just how much they really liked my father. 

PL: [00:12:53] So would this have moved further beyond the period of strict segregation?  Or was he also working [00:13:00] for these families when Charlottesville was still a strictly segregated community? 

CA: [00:13:07] When he was working for Reynolds Electric Company on Main Street, Vinegar Hill was still there.  And once Vinegar Hill was redeveloped, it was about the time I would say he opened his own business from home.  We were like his little secretaries and answered the phone and stuff like that.  So but it was still during that time, as I say, that he was not, no.  They weren’t comfortable with a Black man going into a house with a White female.  And so I’m sure if he was alive today, he probably would have stories [00:14:00] like that to tell you.  And I think this is the difficult thing, that he wasn’t hired right away because of the line that you did not cross. 

PL: [00:14:14] For sure, for sure.  So when you graduated from Jefferson, you went on to Burley?  

CA: [00:14:23] No, actually from Jefferson, my mother, being very proactive and also in NAACP, sent my sister and I to Venable the year before total integration in Charlottesville.  

PL: [00:14:40] What year would that have been? 

CA: [00:14:42] Sixty-five. 

PL: [00:14:46] What grade would you have been in? 

CA: [00:14:47] Fifth grade. 

PL: [00:14:48] In fifth grade.  What was that like for you? 

CA: [00:14:53] It was total shock.  My youngest sister wanted [00:15:00] to go, and my mother did not want her to go alone.  So I did not want to leave Jefferson.  That was coming up to be my last year and all that.  And I just wanted to spend my time at Jefferson.  It was total, total amazement.  I had never been in a situation before where I was the only Black in the classroom.  To be accepted was very difficult, because it was probably something new also.  But a year before that, they allowed if you wanted to send your child there.  Now, there’s been families that sent their kids from the very first day one of first grade to Venable.  And so there were some Blacks there.  But they had us very neatly separated.  [00:16:00] So like in my fifth grade year, there was four classrooms of fifth graders.  And there was one Black in each classroom. 

PL: [00:16:12] Why do you think it was done that way? 

CA: [00:16:14] I’m not quite sure.  I didn’t like it.  I hated it.  I hated it, to be perfectly honest.  I felt myself being sick a lot, just feeling, because I just felt like I wasn’t accepted.  And that was the first time...  I did make a couple of friends.  And that was my first time that I was called the N-word, in that negative...  And it was like this friend of mine had clay.  We were making clay models.  [00:17:00] And I said, “Well let me keep this, and I’ll finish mine.”  We were playing with it.  “And I’ll give it to you after the end of school.”  I didn’t see her, but I saw her brother.  And I said, “Will you please give this to your sister?”  And he said, “I’m not gonna take anything from a nigger.”  So it was a shock.  But I never told my mother.  It was something I felt like, it was my burden at that age to carry, to know that yes, I am different.  And yes, people were not quite as accepting as I would have liked it to have been. 

PL: [00:17:47] And this is 11 years after the Brown decision that you’re talking about, 11 years. 

CA: [00:17:53] Eleven years after that.  

PL: [00:17:56] And of course, we know that Charlottesville didn’t [00:18:00] really integrate until 1959.  But this is still six years after that.  

CA: [00:18:06] Right, exactly.  Because we still had Jefferson Elementary.  I missed my last year there.  And then after Venable, that’s when total integration happened.  And Burnley-Moran is the school that I went to my sixth grade year. 

PL: [00:18:25] And was that better for you? 

CA: [00:18:27] Oh, it was horrible.  It was not better.  It was better for me in one aspect, that there were more Blacks.  So a lot of my friends in the community was going there.  But Burnley-Moran was the school that was from the Belmont area.  That’s what fed into Burnley-Moran.  And so already, you knew you had to [00:19:00] fight, to a certain extent, not physically, but to present yourself as, I am worthy.  You had to prove yourself that you were worthy and accepted.  And so many experiences.  I might talk too long.  They used to have this book.  You’d go around, and you’d put people’s names on it.  And then it’s like an autograph book, I guess.  And people would, we’d pass it around.  And people would write nice little notes and everything about you.  And I had this one friend, I remember.  In my book, I said, “Would you sign my book?”  And she said, “Yes.”  She said, “I’ll take it home over the weekend and bring it back.”  And I said, “That’s great.”  And when I asked her where it was, she didn’t have it.  So a couple of days, I kept saying, “Can you please bring my book back?  I have other people.”  And written in my book, by whoever, [00:20:00] was my friends who were Black, “nigger” was written on the page.  And this was why she didn’t want to give it back to me. 

PL: [00:20:13] Do you think she had done that? 

CA: [00:20:17] I’m not quite sure.  She told me she did not.  But I don’t know.  And so it was tough.  Some of the experiences, even our English teacher.  In the classroom, she had the four Blacks sitting back in the left-hand corner of the room, no place near her desk.  We would raise our hand.  Sometimes, we were called on.  Most of the time, we were not called on.  And with her, I felt the racial tension. 

PL: [00:20:59] With this particular --

CA: [00:21:00] Teacher, yes.  But then I can remember another teacher who was just so loving.  But she was younger. 

PL: [00:21:08] And this is all at Burley.  You’re talking --

CA: [00:21:10] Burnley-Moran.  I never had, I was never fortunate enough to go to Burley.  My brothers went to Burley. 

PL: [00:21:19] Are they older? 

CA: [00:21:20] Yes, they’re older. 

PL: [00:21:23] So then you spent, what, sixth, seventh, and eighth grade at Burnley-Moran? 

CA: [00:21:29] Sixth grade only.  And then we had junior high, so your seventh, eighth, and ninth grade year was between the two junior high schools, Walker Junior High School and Buford Junior High School.  And so we were separated basically by Main Street was the separating line.  Everybody who went to Walker lived on the right-hand side.  And those who went to Buford...  And of course, we ended up at Walker.  [00:22:00] It happened most of the, influence . . . families, because they were on that side of Main Street.  And on Buford side was not really, because you were looking at Rugby Road.  You’re looking at areas similar to that, that all fit into Walker. 

PL: [00:22:24] So I’m a little confused.  Where’d you go to junior high? 

CA: [00:22:27] Walker. 

PL: [00:22:28] Walker?  Okay.  And were those years there better than the Venable or Burnley-Moran? 

CA: [00:22:37] Yes, I would say they were much better. 

PL: [00:22:40] Just because there was a larger number of African American students? 

CA: [00:22:45] To be able to connect with and in classes with.  And more Black teachers we felt like that we could go to. 

PL: [00:23:00] This would have been 1967 to 1969? 

CA: [00:23:03] Correct.  I went to school, the reason I can remember so much, I started school in 1960.  So every year represents, until ’72 when I graduated, because of the way, the year I entered. 

PL: [00:23:18] Right.  So in fact, you went to, if not integrated schools, then desegregated schools, we might say, so in the process of integrating, from fifth grade on.  Okay.  So then you get to Lane High School.  Is it 1969 or ’70 that you start? 

CA: [00:23:41] 1970 was my first year.  Well, ’69, ’70. 

PL: [00:23:49] Sixty-nine, so you start in ’69, and you graduate in ’73? 

CA: [00:23:54] Two. 

PL: [00:23:55] Seventy-two.  

CA: [00:23:57] So ’69-’70, [00:24:00] ’70-’71, ’71-’72. 

PL: [00:24:03] Got it, got it.  Okay.  Just have to count.  Okay, so talk about what those specific years were like for you at Lane.  What was it like to be a student there?  What was it like to be in activities there?  What were the activities you got involved in? 

CA: [00:24:20] Well, let me go back to junior high school for a moment, because I think that’s an important part of my life.  There were anger, you know.  And there also, which I didn’t tell you about, there was an incident where one of the girls called “rape” from one of the Black guys, because someone caught them.  But she had been seeing this guy.  

PL: [00:24:46] A little White girl. 

CA: [00:24:47] Mm-hmm.  So that was tension also there.  So junior high started out good.  But once that happened, then it was more tense time.  [00:25:00] But everybody, I can remember people, we all knew that this girl liked this guy and everything.  But when they got caught, she called rape.  So you’re speaking of another time, that something else influenced us because of the negativity.  So junior high was an angry year.  I can remember my last year being angry because of what had happened.  And I had this wonderful health and PE teacher, who just, Mrs. Walton.  I would love to know where she is today.  Who just took me under her wing and just said, “I know you’re angry.  But I see the good in you.  And I know what type of person you are.”  And that’s probably one of the reasons I became a health and PE teacher, because she did care.  [00:26:00] I really felt like.  And so she actually invited some of us over to her house.  She lived off of Rugby Road, just for a little luncheon, because I think she, I knew she cared.  I don’t think.  I knew that she cared about our feelings and everything.  And so troubling years, again because of an incident.  Not being very close to my counterparts.  I didn’t know that many, because we still segregated ourselves.  And it happened as the transition went into Lane, also.  We were still sort of segregated. 

PL: [00:26:48] Right.  Now that one incident that you’ve talked about, in which this one White girl accused this African American boy of rape, would you say it was that [00:27:00] one incident that affected the rest of your time at Walker?  Or were there other things that caused you to be so angry? 

CA: [00:27:09] Well, there was always the put-downs that I felt because of who I was, because of the color of my skin.  So but that was one incident that I’d forgotten about.  And when I started thinking about this, I was like, oh yeah.  

PL: [00:27:34] So did that affect what your parents told you you should be doing or not doing?  Did it rise to that level of feeling like your own actions needed to be really carefully monitored so that you wouldn’t be accused of whatever?  

CA: [00:27:58] First of all, I was [00:28:00] raised in, I’m not going to say a strict family environment.  But there was always a certain way that you were supposed to be and you were supposed to act.  And education, because my parents did not have the opportunity that was opening up to their children, education was always pushed.  For you to excel, for you to be the best you can be.  And there are gonna be times in life where people are not gonna be nice.  And they continued to do that.  We didn’t have much.  My mother used to say we were so stupid, we didn’t realize how poor we were.  But we never felt that way, because that was important.  So the way I treated people was the way I wanted to be treated.  And that carried [00:29:00] throughout my entire life, my teaching career, that I wanted to be fair.  I just wanted to be fair.  And I wanted people to say, she believes in us.  She’ll listen to us.  I might not agree, but I want that ear.  And so that’s what I always looked for.  And I think my gym teacher at that time, Mrs. Walton, had that listening ear. 

PL: [00:29:30] Mrs. Walton? 

CA: [00:29:31] Mrs. Walton. 

PL: [00:29:33] Is that W-A-L-T-O-N? 

CA: [00:29:35] W-A-L-T-O-N, yes.  

PL: [00:29:39] I thought you had said, let me just check here.  I thought you had said Mrs...  Oh no, you must have said Mrs. Walton.  I got it wrong the first time.  Great, Mrs. Walton.  Got it right this time.  So can we move on to Lane now?  Are we ready to --

CA: [00:29:56] Yes, we can move on to Lane.  Well, and of course, [00:30:00] excitement was, “Okay, we’re all going to be together.”  So Lane transition was not only Walker.  It was Buford now, Black and Whites, that I did not know to a certain extent.  So Lane then put us all together.  And so I met just as many Black students as I met White students during that very first year.  And but I always have gone across town, I would say, to Tonsler Park.  And that was the other Black park that we had, and played on the softball team.  So some of them, I knew, because I played on their softball team and not my Washington Park softball team.  And we also had a [00:31:00] little basketball little league that I was a member of, too.  But so not only being thrown together, as I say, Whites and Blacks.  It was also everybody, Blacks I didn’t know that I had to learn also.  A different relationship. 

PL: [00:31:22] Was that a positive thing for you, or a negative thing? 

CA: [00:31:24] It was positive.  It was very positive, because once again, we were a village.  There was always that protection there.  I was, I can’t remember, was I vice president of my class?  I can’t remember.  I can look and find out.  [00:32:00] But we decided to make sure we had representation.  And I was very fortunate that I was a person that the Black, my other Black counterparts felt I was good, as far as representing them.  So we always had that vote. 

PL: [00:32:19] So when you say you were once again a village, that’s really interesting to me because you said you were a village when you were growing up and in this segregated environment, where everyone knew one another.  Then when you say you get to Lane, which is now fully integrated, you say you’re a village again.  And so are you saying that because there were so many more people that you felt you were just, who would just accept you for who you were? 

CA: [00:32:52] Right, more comfortable.  And it was really, I think the fun part of [00:33:00] it was when I would go home and tell my parents about this.  Oh yeah, that’s Mary’s daughter.  Or that’s, you know.  So it was like --

PL: [00:33:11] I see, coming together. 

CA: [00:33:13] Coming together.  Because my parents knew who everybody was.  Charlottesville was very small. [Extraneous material redacted.]  

CA: [00:33:53] It was very small.  Everybody knew everybody.  And that was a good thing, because I would go home and say [00:34:00] to my parents, I met this girl.  I know this girl.  And they would know automatically.  But then of course, once again, the Black church was very important.  There was four major Black churches here.  And so being involved with that, we got together for conventions in the summertime.  So it was just a lot of things within the Black community that we did, just to know each other.  But there was some that I didn’t know. 

PL: [00:34:34] Sure.  So it expanded your sense of community. 

CA: [00:34:37] Exactly, yeah. 

PL: [00:34:40] So you just said something that is a little different than what I had remembered from your earlier, from our earlier conversation.  You said you played softball and basketball in these little leagues that were at the parks, not in the schools. 

CA: [00:34:59] Not at the [00:35:00] schools. 

PL: [00:35:01] Yeah, but you were athletic in that way, that you were involved in these other sports. 

CA: [00:35:06] Yes.  

PL: [00:35:07] And so at Lane, one very specific question I have is that in 1968, I think the year before you went, there was a student walk-out at Lane, by the Black students.  Do you know anything about that, or remember anything about that? 

CA: [00:35:29] That was my brother’s class.  That was the year it was total integrated, but they closed Burley.  And so any students from Burley, which is my oldest brother, went to Lane and graduated from Lane.  So it’s very, a difficult time for those who have been in a segregated school the entire time, for them to make this decision to close Burley completely.  [00:36:00] And then to go to Lane, your last year that you’ve been waiting to graduate from Burley High School, which is the high school at the time, to do that.  And yes, I can remember my brothers talking about it.  Of course, I didn’t enter Lane until ’70.  So ’68, I can remember that. 

PL: [00:36:22] And what do you remember your brothers saying about that?  Just that it was very difficult, or that there was a lot of hostility? 

CA: [00:36:31] A lot of hostility, as I said, because of the closing of Burley.  That was the high school.  As a child, I used to look through the fences.  We lived right across from Burley.  And I would look through the fence in the stadium.  And this is why I became a cheerleader.  I used to watch the Burley Bears cheerleaders and just thought, “Oh wow.  I’m gonna be a cheerleader when I go to [00:37:00] Burley.”  I just knew that, everything.  So all of a sudden, you take the pride away from the students.  And you throw them in a situation where you know they’re not welcome, because Lane was closed for a couple of years because the White parents did not want their children to go to Lane with Black students.  So you had Rock Hill Academy that came out of this.  And then McIntire High School was basically all White.  So to be thrown in a situation like that, identity is everything, who you are.  And to be stripped of that [00:38:00] caused anger.  And to feel like that you’re not being appreciated, and you’re from the other side.  You’re from the other school.  And the only reason you’re here is because the governor, whoever, says we have to do this.  But as I said, Lane was closed for a couple of years, to stop --

PL: [00:38:26] I could be wrong about this, so maybe Lorenzo will help me.  I thought Lane was closed for six months.  I thought the Charlottesville schools shut down from September until January of ’58, and then opened up in ’59.  Is that --

LORENZO DICKERSON: [00:38:46] Yeah, I think it wasn’t that long.  It wasn’t --

PL: [00:38:49] It probably felt very --

CA: [00:38:50] No, it felt that way because, see, Rock Hill was still very much, very popular. 

PL: [00:38:56] And it continued.  Rock Hill continued. 

CA: [00:38:58] Right, it continued.  And so [00:39:00] I felt the effects of Rock Hill, of students that even now, when we have our class reunions, they would say, “Oh, I went to Rock Hill but still want to come to our class reunions.”  It was just the pride that Burley High School had, and to be stripped of that. 

PL: [00:39:29] I understand.  And again, you’re not the first person to say this.  But you said that, this is so interesting to me, that watching through the gates of Burley and seeing the cheerleaders made you want to be a cheerleader.  So --

CA: [00:39:47] So that’s how --

PL: [00:39:48] So tell us about that.  Did you have to try out for the cheerleading --

CA: [00:39:51] Yes, you had to try out for the cheerleading squad.  And I always said I had the perfect voice, because I’m loud.  And so [00:40:00] I can’t carry a tune, so the choir was out for me.  The band, I gave it a try in younger years, and it wasn’t...  So I was a majorette.  And from a majorette, being a cheerleader was just a continuation for me.  So tried out, and very fortunately, I made the squad.  And during that period, while I was at Lane, I was the only Black that was on all three years, on the squad all three years. 

PL: [00:40:38] And so did you, what was that like for you? 

CA: [00:40:45] I had very high expectations, hoping that this would bring that end of separation, that this will be a [00:41:00] cohesive group to join, and we’ll be happy.  You always want to have that in the back of your mind.  And it was my sophomore year, but we were just JV cheerleaders, so we just went to the little, small games and all of that.  And that was really, we had a really good squad that year, because I knew most of the girls.  Scheryl Williams and Michelle Taylor were the two cheerleaders, Black cheerleaders, on the varsity team.  So they had paved the way for us.  They were the very first ones.  And so being JV was exactly up my alley.  I enjoyed that.  That was all my years. 

PL: [00:41:51] And you just, you said you were the only Black cheerleader on the JV team. 

CA: [00:41:57] No, I was not.  I’m the only Black cheerleader [00:42:00] that did all three years while I was at Lane.  But no, Sheila Tyler, one of my best friends, she was on the JV squad.  And we lived right up the street from each other, so that was great.  Once we got to, we had a really good sponsor, too, that really felt like getting together, having pizza, trying to nurture us into becoming adults and learning to get along and to show the unity within the squad.  So that was great.  And it wasn’t that way after that. 

PL: [00:42:42] After what? 

CA: [00:42:43] After my sophomore year.  Yeah, the diversity, you really could tell we were divided again.  I just felt like we were an excellent cheering squad.  But we always went our separate ways.  [00:43:00] And back then, Blacks had sufficient, they had what they needed.  But our parents worked so hard.  So a lot of times, being in groups like this, the parents were the ones who provided the transportation for us to go to the games.  And of course, my father being self-employed, worked late nights.  And I can remember my junior year, and this is why I said, I felt the unity had gone.  It was like I was approached, “Why can’t your father do this?  Our fathers are always doing this.  And none of the Black cheerleaders’ parents are doing this.”  Well, we didn’t have the transportation.  Our parents worked very hard.  And so that was the first time I felt dysfunction I think of the cheering. 

PL: [00:43:56] Why do you think that happened between your sophomore and junior year?  [00:44:00] Was there some catalyst that caused that? 

CA: [00:44:02] Well, you always look back and think, what did the parents have to say about this?  Was the parents saying to them, why are we always responsible for your transportation?  We would get together and do the huge signs that the football players would run through when they entered the field and everything.  Well, we just didn’t have . . . I didn’t have the transportation, nor did the other Black members of the squad, to be able to go to the different houses and help out with those things like that.  And so that, I think, played a role in my junior year, where I felt like, okay, once again, we’re being singled out because of something we had no control of. 

PL: [00:44:55] Yeah, of course.  Cheerleading, of course, I’m assuming [00:45:00] much of your cheerleading takes place in the context of a variety of sports activities.  Is that right?  

CA: [00:45:08] Football and basketball. 

PL: [00:45:11] So then this really does bring us, I think, into the core of our project on race and sports.  Because although you weren’t playing sports, you were at a lot of the games.  And you were being seen.  You would have been very visible as a cheerleader on the team.  So do you have any memories or sense of what it was like for the athletes on those teams?  Or what it was like at the games?  What was the tone at the games?  What happened with Whites and Blacks?  Did they sit in different places?  Were they sitting together?  What was that like, in terms of the actual environment? 

CA: [00:46:00] The environment was just always, to a certain extent, segregated.  There was pockets.  But the Blacks would sit together in the stadium.  But as I said, there’s pockets throughout.  One thing I thought about after I talked to you, this was also when the Black Power movement started in the United States.  Okay, so you’ve got the influence of that.  So I was looking through the yearbook.  And my sophomore year, there was a picture taken of the basketball team that two of the members had their fists up.  So I stopped and looked at that picture.  And I said, “How did they feel?  I wonder, being on the squad, being excellent athletes.  But they felt it was [00:47:00] necessary to do that.  Why?”  So I can only say that the division was probably felt also with the athletes, the Black athletes.  

PL: [00:47:18] Did you say that was a picture in the yearbook? 

CA: [00:47:20] Yes.  

PL: [00:47:21] Lorenzo, is it worth getting a photo of that?  Or maybe go back directly to the yearbook to --

LD: [00:47:28] Yeah, we can get it.  

PL: [00:47:30] Why don’t you show it to us? 

CA: [00:47:33] Okay. 

[Extraneous material redacted.] 

CA: [00:48:12] This picture right here. 

PL: [00:48:13] Oh, look at that.  Look at that.  I wish they put page numbers on this.  So it’s the JV basketball page for 1970.  Lorenzo, you want to see that top picture?  I got my booster yesterday.  My arm’s a little, yes, but it’s my right arm that’s sore, so I’m okay.  So do you know who those guys were? 

CA: [00:48:39] Oh, yeah.  Those were the star, no.  Marcellus Anderson was one.  [Ray Hester?], I think, are the two that had their hands up for the Black Power. 

PL: [00:48:51] Are they around? 

CA: [00:48:52] Marcellus lives in Yorktown now.  And Ray, I’m not quite sure about.  Eddie Barbour [00:49:00] on the team.  He lives in Tidewater area, I think.  So I have to, I needed to bring that picture up because --

PL: [00:49:13] Absolutely.  I’m so glad you did. 

CA: [00:49:16] Because right there almost shows you, to a certain extent, that there was still a little dysfunction there.  And to feel that way, to do it just as, okay, we’re going to take the picture.  And all of a sudden, this was taken.  And it was during that thing.  So a lot during that era was influenced by what was going on around us nationwide with the Black Panthers and all of that.  So once again, Burley’s taken from us.  Barnaby’s and places like that, that the White students [00:50:00] hung out, I never remember anybody saying, why don’t you meet us at these hangouts that they would have.  So it was still segregated to a certain point.  And once again, it’s the...  the Afros.  Of course, I had the biggest Afro of all.  So this influenced us a lot.  

PL: [00:50:22] So one of the questions that we’re trying to explore through this project is, what role did athletics actually have in desegregating the community?  Do you think athletics had a really positive role, in terms of bringing people together in competition?  Or did the way in which this all got handled [00:51:00] have more negative impacts?  You were at a lot of these sports games.  You knew a lot of these people.  You chose to be a cheerleader, to be engaged in those ways, aside from the fact that cheerleading was just fun, right?  

CA: [00:51:15] Right.  And I’m so glad this is opinion-based.  Because to a certain point, as long as you were rah-rah, promoting these teams, making the touchdowns, doing the scores and everything, you were, everybody was cheering for you.  But I think in the back of, once you get back into the school situation, where you were just a student, you were just a student.  Does that make sense to you? 

PL: [00:51:49] Can you say a little more about that? 

CA: [00:51:52] Sports played a part, as far as your identification, [00:52:00] your talent, and all that.  And you had the support of the school.  But when you took that away, there was nothing.  You went back --

PL: [00:52:13] -- to just being a Black student. 

CA: [00:52:15] Right.  And I can remember some of the football players and basketball players, some of the schools that we went to, they were still basically White, being called names.  When they got on the bus, they’re being called names.  Because you have a mixed team, Blacks and Whites together.  And don’t let Lane win, with these Black athletes.  Then you’re really gonna have to get out there quickly.  But that’s the same way it was when we played Armstrong and Richmond.  [00:53:00] That was all Black.  And my counterparts were like, let’s get out of here quickly.  They felt what we experienced all the time, being called names and everything.  So yeah, the guys will say, “Oh yeah, we went there.  And they’re very racist, and they called us names, and stuff like that.” 

PL: [00:53:24] So of course.  I should have known this.  It just didn’t occur to me.  You traveled with the team when you went to away games.  And so that’s what you’re describing now, is just the tension, depending upon which school you were playing.  Did your parents regularly come to watch you, as a cheerleader? 

CA: [00:53:48] No, my mother had no interest in it whatsoever.  And when she came to one of my games, she asked my father, “Now what team should I be cheering for, rooting [00:54:00] for?”  And my father said, “Look at the colors that Corlis has on.  That’s the team you should be…”  (laughter) So no, my mother was not the, no, into sports things, even though all of us were.  I mean, the five of us, my brothers played football.  My oldest brother played football for Burley.  And then my second brother played on the Lane High School basketball team.  And he was very quiet, so he never really talked about his experience being a basketball player on Lane.  But he only did it for one year, so I don’t think it was very positive for him.  But he was quiet.  He never really mentioned that.  Now, when my oldest brother came to Lane, he refused to participate in any sports because he, “I’m from Burley.  [00:55:00] No, I’m not gonna play here at Lane.” 

PL: [00:55:04] Are your brothers still living? 

CA: [00:55:06] Yes. 

PL: [00:55:07] And where do they live? 

CA: [00:55:08] Newport News and Richmond.  My oldest brother --

PL: [00:55:12] So would they be willing to be interviewed, do you think? 

CA: [00:55:15] Oh, yes.  My oldest brother would love to be interviewed. 

PL: [00:55:19] And he played for Burley, you’re saying, right? 

CA: [00:55:21] Yes, he played football.  

PL: [00:55:24] That’s very interesting.  So on another, when we met earlier, you made a point of saying that you felt that the government was responsible for so mishandling desegregation.  Can you just talk a little bit about that, of what you think went wrong there? 

CA: [00:55:55] Preparation, guidance, [00:56:00] getting the community together to basically get this fixed.  We were not, and I want to say it in a very positive way, but negative at the same time.  No one prepared us for this, the students.  We went in there, and for, because it happened.  It was the law.  I didn’t realize that at the time.  So this is why I’ve got to go on for a couple of years here.  Once I became a teacher and I took a diversity class, this is when I really realized Charlottesville, Albemarle County was to blame.  Because not only were we forced to do it; so were the Black teachers.  There [00:57:00] was no preparation, no nothing.  They didn’t even know their schedules or what school they were gonna be at until mid-summer.  And so there was no preparation.  There was just nothing but just to throw us out there.  And so when I look back as an adult, I said, what could have been done?  And I think we knew this was coming up.  It should have been put someplace in our curriculum or something like that, the preparation.  But the walk-outs, and it was a walk-out in my year, ’72, also.  

PL: [00:57:44] Oh, really? 

CA: [00:57:45] Right, by White students.  And but as I said, there was no manual.  And I know a lot of things you learn as you get older.  But [00:58:00] I felt like I was put in a situation that I was never prepared for.  

PL: [00:58:09] You talked earlier, when we talked about this play that you had been involved in, was that when the White students walked out? 

CA: [00:58:17] Right.  We had this play, which was based on, the whole thing was violence is not worth it.  That’s not the right way.  And it was written by one of our Black English teachers, who graduated from University of Virginia.  And it showed two home type of situations.  One where one of the girls was very militant, Black Power, all of this.  The other one was no, peaceful, Martin Luther King type of situation.  [00:59:00] And so as it ended up, she got killed because of the violence.  And it was all boiled down that violence is not the solution for this, that we need to get along.  But along with that, we also had the Black Negro anthem at the end, “Lift Every Voice and Sing. ”

PL: [00:59:23] At the end. 

CA: [00:59:24] At the end.  And when that started, the White students walked out.  So once again, it proved that even the more you’re involved, I think, in situations, the more you find out more about people.  

PL: [00:59:46] For sure. 

CA: [00:59:47] And that was my senior year.  As I said, my sophomore year, I loved it.  But after my junior and senior year was just really going through integration [01:00:00] again.  And because of the other outside influences that we had.  Not being prepared.  Our neighborhoods were totally segregated.  We had no integration, except the mailman coming or the milkman coming.  And that was it.  So we were not prepared.  On the other hand, what I felt was “I don’t want my child to go to school with you because of the color of your skin.”  This is what the attitude came in.  And being on the cheering squad, I just, that sophomore year was like unity.  It was something that I thought, this is the way it was supposed to be.  And then by the junior and senior year, it was not. 

…. 

PL: [01:01:01] I just want Corlis to tell the story that I know you told me, about what happened to you with the national anthem.  Remember, you told the story.  And I think it’s an important story. 

CA: [01:01:16] It is a very important story.  Because once again, I guess in my older years, I realize etiquette.  And we were taught Virginia history.  We were taught the respect of the flag and everything.  So we went to Spotswood as cheerleader.  This was an away game.  And when we got there, we were rushing in because we were late getting there.  I sat down and put my things down, and never realized that the national anthem was being played.  And I got stuck right there.  And what do I do?  Do I [01:02:00] remain seated politely?  Or do I jump up real quickly?  Because it was like a standstill moment.  So the misunderstanding, and this caused quite a lot of confusion among the students, that I refused to stand.  It’s not that I refused to stand.  I was in a situation that I didn’t know what to do.  But I took it as, I refused to stand, because that’s the way it was presented to me.  And so of course what happened was the sponsor called me up and said, “What happened?”  I explained that I didn’t refuse, not to stand and everything.  And so I was suspended from the squad.  That’s the time my mother, and I don’t think I told you all of this.  My mother finally showed up at Lane High School.  And I hate to say this, but [01:03:00] she did say that the principal at that time turned every shade of a Christmas tree when she got finished.  But my mother was a religious woman.  And she said, “I pay my taxes.”  And she went on.  But she put her foot down at that point in time.  But I did have somebody on the counseling stop and say, “Well, was it because they had the Confederate flag on their uniforms?”  No.  It was just an incident that happened.  But it started, once again, another can of worms, where that and I felt like no one listened to me, with the suspension and everything.  So it was horrible to go to a game.  And I went to a game, because I was going to go.  It was during basketball season, and I was going to go whether I was on that squad or not.  Every time a Black [01:04:00] person made a goal, the crowd went crazy.  Every time a White person made a goal, the Blacks said nothing. 

PL: [01:04:13] Because of the tension. 

CA: [01:04:14] Because of the tension, and I was suspended from the cheering squad. 

PL: [01:04:18] Oh, so that was in support of you. 

CA: [01:04:20] Mm-hmm, in support of me because I was suspended.  And I felt so bad for the lone Black cheerleader, who chose to cheer.  Because she was trying her best to get the crowd rowdy and stuff like that.  And I can just remember seeing her just sit down and cry.  Because they, once again, was she an Uncle Tom or not?  No, I don’t think so.  She stood up for her rights.  She believed that what she was doing, to be on that cheering squad, and that’s what she wanted to do.  I didn’t have the choice.  [01:05:00] I had the support.  So once again, when I said when we came together, we were still a village.  It’s just how we did it, still that.  And that was one of the things.  So I look --

PL: [01:05:14] For how long were you suspended? 

CA: [01:05:16] A week?  

PL: [01:05:19] Yeah, just one game? 

CA: [01:05:22] No, it was two games.  I think it was supposed to be three.  But I think the principle realized, we better get her back in here. 

PL: [01:05:36] Now I have been stealing all the time.  I haven’t allowed Lorenzo any time to ask questions.  So I want to make sure, before you break down your equipment, we can do that. 

LD: [01:05:45] Sure. 

CA: [01:05:46] And I would love for him, because Lorenzo’s a former student of mine.  So I would love, because this is the first time he’s seeing me as an individual who experienced the same racial tension you probably [01:06:00] still felt when you were at Henley, because the low percentage of Blacks. 

LD: [01:06:05] Perfect segue. 

CA: [01:06:09] Exactly. 

LD: [01:06:10] I was gonna ask you, you said you were one of four Black students in the fifth grade, separate classrooms.  Because I had that same experience in the fifth grade at Murray.  And I was curious, with you teaching in the county for so long, especially in that western part of the county, how would you say diversity and even numbers of African American students, how has it changed over the years?  Or has it? 

CA: [01:06:40] Oh, it has.  Because when I first started, Henley was three percent.  And so that was really another, okay, let me back up.  When I graduated from Lane High School, I wanted to go to a Black school.  I had to go to a Black school, [01:07:00] because I got tired of fighting.  I felt like I’d fought the whole time, misunderstood.  So when I decided to go into teaching, once again, I wanted to be fair.  And it was just so strange.  I was placed at Henley, that had three percent minority there at the time.  As the area grew up, and as Blacks made it back to their homes, then it started to increase.  And so it was great.  But I think I was telling you that one of my students came up to me at my desk and said to me, “Do you know my maid?  And I go no, I don’t know your maid.  Who is your maid?”  “Well, she goes to the Spectrum East? all the time.  That’s where she goes dancing.”  And I said, “I don’t go to the Spectrum East.”  So once again, even in the students, when they look at you, they see [01:08:00] color.  I didn’t see color.  When we had to do our roll books, we had to say how many minorities, how many Blacks, how many Asians you had in your class.  And I looked at the principal and said, I have no idea.  I teach children.  That’s my job.  And so once again, that’s the state requirement.  So you had to fill all the information out.  But my first four years, I had to prove myself double.  Because I came up against parents who wanted to question me, about my techniques and everything. 

LD: [01:08:47] During your time as a teacher, how many other African American teachers did you work with, would you say? 

CA: [01:08:56] Oh, wow.  I think actually, Albemarle County [01:09:00] had a promotion to recruit more minority teachers.  I guess I had been there maybe about 10 years or so.  And they, once again, they brought the minority teachers in.  But the preparation, of trying to attain these teachers, were not put in.  We did our job.  We brought in X number of Black teachers.  But I don’t think they were really supported, like they were to get them ready for that classroom.  Because believe me, a lot of things that I experienced was not taught to me in college.  It was just what you experience in everyday life.  So I did.  And some left because of the area.  Some left because of the administration.  I left because of [01:10:00] the administration.  I could no longer take it.  I was burned out by that time. 

PL: [01:10:09] This was at Henley? 

CA: [01:10:10] Mm-hmm.  I taught there for --

PL: [01:10:12] So you retired because of that?  Or you moved to another school? 

CA: [01:10:15] No, I retired.  After 35 years, and the new administration came in, and I was teaching every student in the building health through a rotation because that was my second degree.  And I don’t think he was on the job for two hours before he called and told me that I wasn’t capable of doing that.  And this was my 30th year when he came in.  So for the next three years, I fought him.  And he slowly got rid of Black teachers.  It never stops.  I’m sorry.  It just doesn’t.  But I was determined that when I left that school, [01:11:00] he was gonna need me before I needed him.  And he did.  

PL: [01:11:10] Can I just ask one quick question?  Because you’ve just led into this.  Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of race relations in Charlottesville and Albemarle?  That’s not a quick answer, I know. 

CA: [01:11:26] That’s not a quick answer.  But this is my prayer all the time.  My son is married to White.  I have two beautiful granddaughters I love.  I fear for them.  It’s difficult.  I don’t know what’s going to happen to biracial, no matter what race it is, together, them being mixed.  Black-White, Asian-White, [01:12:00] whatever.  The whole picture.  I still, very concerned about our Black males, little boys, what they’re gonna be facing because of what we’re faced now.  And all I try to do is to teach my granddaughters my philosophy.  Be kind.  Be good.  And when people do not accept that, it’s not because you were not.  They were not.  And I don’t know.  I really wish, but I do worry about our children.  What have we left them with?  Did integration help, or did it hurt?  That’s something you really have to think about.  [01:13:00] And going to church, I went to an all-Black church, and then I went to a multicultural church.  But the Black churches were so important in our lives, I went back to the Black church again because of the unity, because of the family.  And Lorenzo, you’ve got to go, but I can talk.  You should know I can talk.  But anyway, I’m hoping that this will help.  It’s my opinion, my experience.  I welcome anyone in my home, no matter what color.  Christmas, you would love to be here at my home for Christmas, because I have adopted a Hispanic family, which is my son’s best friends.  And Christmas Eve, to them, is when they really celebrate [01:14:00] the birth and everything.  Christmas Day, they don’t.  So they come here.  So I have like 20-some people in this little, small house.  But we’re family.  And then my daughter-in-law and her parents will come.  So this is a multiracial house here.  Anybody’s invited.  Just come on in and have fun. 

PL: [01:14:22] Well, thank you.  I can’t thank you enough.  You were totally yourself and honest.  I know it’s sometimes hard to do that on camera. 

CA: [01:14:33] I didn’t cry.  Because some of the pictures I looked at, it was just like, I don’t know these people.  Even now.  And we have reunions every five years, and I still don’t know them.  

PL: [01:14:49] Well, they don’t want to know.  Part of it is choice, right? 

CA: [01:14:53] Right, choices.  

PL: [01:14:54] So Lorenzo, feel free to shut the cameras off, unless you have something else you want to ask. 

LD: [01:15:00] I was curious, 1965, were you like, nine, 10 years old? 

CA: [01:15:08] I was fifth grade. 

LD: [01:15:09] Fifth grade.  What do you remember of Vinegar Hill being torn down? 

CA: [01:15:16] When I went to Jefferson, there was thriving businesses up there.  There was always the corner store, Inge’s Corner Store that we went to all the time, because she saved your little pennies.  Pennies meant something back then, because you would get penny candy.  And plus my church was right across from Jefferson, and it was torn down.  Zion Union was torn down because of the redevelopment.  So to me, it was crushing.  But I was too young to understand.  But some of it, yes, was maybe slum-like.  I don’t know.  But [01:16:00] there were good things happening.  And I just found out that Lane High School was part, the building itself was part of Vinegar Hill that belonged to Blacks.  And they basically, what do you call it when you --

LD: [01:16:18] Eminent domain? 

CA: [01:16:21] Right, okay.  Lane built right there in the middle of Vinegar Hill.  That’s really interesting.  But yeah.  The funeral home, all that was, it was thriving for the Black community.  There is where you knew that you could go.  And we had a McGregory car dealership there.  And to think that they would put a White dealer would put his...  But Blacks had to drive, [01:17:00] too, and put cars and all of that.  So it was, yeah.  It affected me because our church was torn down.  And that’s what I can --

PL: [01:17:10] Where did the church go?  Where’d it relocate? 

CA: [01:17:12] On Preston Avenue. 

LD: [01:17:13] Across from Trinity. 

CA: [01:17:16] Right across from Trinity, Washington Park.  The one with the little, that was --

LD: [01:17:21] That used to be where Staples is now. 

CA: [01:17:24] Basically yes, right in that area was where the church was. 

PL: [01:17:29] So they had to rebuild the church, I’m sure. 

CA: [01:17:32] Yes, we did.  

PL: [01:17:33] Substantial cost. 

CA: [01:17:34] My father was a trustee.  And so I can remember that, also. 

LD: [01:17:39] I went to preschool at Zion Union. 

CA: [01:17:42] Did you?  Yes, you were there with Billy Byers. 

LD: [01:17:46] Yeah. 

CA: [01:17:47] You know, yeah, you see him all the time here, yeah. 

LD: [01:17:50] That’s why I love living in this neighborhood, because people like Ms. Anderson and Karen Garland and Paul Brown.  And it’s --

PL: [01:17:59] Yeah, it’s a really diverse [01:18:00] neighborhood.  

LD: [01:18:00] A lot of teachers too. 

PL: [01:18:01] It’s wonderful.  It’s wonderful. 

CA: [01:18:03] Yeah, we’re all here. 

 

END OF AUDIO FILE