Julia Shields

ANNIE VALENTINE: [00:00:00] Today is August 24th, 2022, and I’m here with George Gilliam and Lorenzo Dickerson, and we’re interviewing Julia Shields in her home. And I’m Annie Valentine. Thank you. We’re so happy to be here. Thank you for speaking with us today.

JULIA SHIELDS: [00:00:16] Well, thank you for asking me. I hope I can remember something.

AV: [00:00:22] What was your date of birth?

JS: [00:00:24] May of 1940. So, I’m 82 years old. 

AV: [00:00:31] And where were you born?

JS: [00:00:34] I was born in Washington DC, at Garfield Hospital. We lived in Alexandria. And then, when I was five, moved out to Mount Vernon, a half miles from George Washington’s home, before it was what it is now. It was plain -- we lived in an old Quaker farmhouse, which is still there, surrounded by modern, redwood homes, [00:01:00] with decks and all kinds of fancy stuff.

AV: [00:01:03] What made you want to be a teacher?

JS: [00:01:09] I don’t know. I just always, at least, thought about being a teacher, which is strange because I wasn’t around young children much. We lived out in the country. My best friend lived three miles away and she was one of six children in their family, and there were her little brothers and sisters, and we put them through their paces a little bit. But I don’t know. My aunt was a teacher, so I’m sure I was influenced by her. 

AV: [00:01:47] And were your parents influences as well? What did they do?

JS: [00:01:51] Dad was a lawyer, and Mom was a stay-at-home, wonderful mother. So, yes. [00:02:00] In fact, it was my mother who -- I got an NDEA fellowship to come to graduate school and it was my mother who saw the article in the paper and said -- I was working at Episcopal High School in the alumni office and she said, “You might be interested in this.” And I knew that I didn’t want to work in the alumni office much longer. It was really boring. (laughs) And so, I applied and got it and that started it all.

AV: [00:02:32] What do you remember about race relations as a child? Were you able to remember and be conscious of what happened in 1954, with the Brown versus Board of Education decision?

JS: [00:02:43] I was totally out of it at that point. In terms of race relations, in Alexandria, I didn’t know any Black kids but we spent most summers down with my grandmother in a little town in South Carolina, [00:03:00] and there were Black kids who lived nearby, and also who lived near my aunts, and we played with them every day. I sort of dimly knew that there was something called segregation, but I didn’t know what it meant. And looking back, of course, I know they knew the rules. We didn’t. And I can remember on Saturdays, all of my cousins and I, and our Black friends, would walk downtown to the picture show, and I never -- I mean, I was little, but I never noticed that they didn’t go in the entrance that we went in. We all went together, we smoked our candy cigarettes, we had a good time, and then, they just quietly went in the side door. And it breaks my heart that I was so ignorant [00:04:00] and I know that they knew what was allowed and what wasn’t. They didn’t come inside the house to play. I mean, we spent most of our time outdoors anyway. But I’m sure they knew the rules. We didn’t. Or I didn’t. I was one of the younger ones.

AV: [00:04:19] Do you remember when you first started to be aware of things? Were you thinking about it, when you first started at Lane?

JS: [00:04:26] Oh, very definitely I was at Lane because it was the first year of total integration. And it was all pretty frightening as to how it was going to work. But -- I don’t know. I don’t know when I became aware. I know I went to an NAACP [00:05:00] meeting when I was in college, and that certainly increased my awareness. And by the way, they were so lovely to those of us who came, such a gracious age, and such gracious people.

AV: [00:05:20] Where were you in college?

JS: [00:05:21] I went to Sweet Briar and this was a meeting in Lynchburg. So, I do remember that, but I don’t know. It was just -- I guess my main education was at Lane. (laughs)

AV: [00:05:35] And what brought you to Charlottesville?

JS: [00:05:38] I got the fellowship to go to graduate school at UVA, and my brother and his family live down here, so that was exciting that I was going to be near him and his little children. And they had a deal with this fellowship that they would -- you did a year of graduate work, [00:06:00] and then you did a teaching internship, and they would guarantee you a job, an internship, in your hometown. Well, I didn’t want to go back to Northern Virginia. It was getting too crowded and I like country living. So, the first thing I did after I got the fellowship was change my address to Charlottesville. (laughs) So, that’s how I got the job at Lane High School, which delighted me.

AV: [00:06:32] And what year was that, that you started at Lane?

JS: [00:06:35] Nineteen sixty-seven.

AV: [00:06:36] In the fall?

JS: [00:06:38] Mm-hmm. 

AV: [00:06:40] And what classes did you teach?

JS: [00:06:44] Let’s see. The first year, tenth grade, eleventh grade, and basic communication, which was a course required for all those [00:07:00] students who had failed English the year before and they had to take basic communication skills and their regular English class. You can imagine what a happy group they were. They hated English. But it was an adventure and a wonderful adventure, ultimately. There were 35 kids in the class. We had a split lunch. We had a half an hour of class, then went to lunch, and then, came back for another half hour. It was wild. (laughs) 

AV: [00:07:35] And how many years where you at Lane?

JS: [00:07:40] I was at Lane until it closed and then switched over to CHS, and I taught for 30 years. And then...

AV: [00:07:49] Did you ever teach any other classes?

JS: [00:07:52] Lots. In fact, somewhere in that bundle of junk, I think I taught, [00:08:00] I don’t know 60 or 70 different classes. We went through a phase of having a one-term elective so there were a bunch of strange -- I taught a Shakespeare class, and I taught creative writing, I did the yearbook and the newspaper, and ultimately, taught AP, just about everything related to English.

AV: [00:08:34] When you started at Lane, were you given any sort of briefing about the school environment or the atmosphere or rules or instructions specific to desegregation from administrators or fellow teachers? 

JS: [00:08:49] I remember vividly my first faculty meeting. Downstairs in the basement at Lane, we all gathered in this big room, and I don’t remember who the first speaker [00:09:00] was, he was an administrator, and gave what I thought was a lovely speech about how we must all be colorblind, and I ate -- he went on at some length, but I found it quite moving that we were to ignore the racial differences. And then, the next speaker who was one of our principals stood up and gave us instructions for filling out the daily attendance chart, where we had to designate how many Black kids and how many white kids were there, when we had just heard we were supposed to be colorblind. And we all burst out laughing and he got furious with us. Apparently he wasn’t listening to the previous speech. (laughs) So, we got a lot of laughs out of that. But I remember that and I remember speeches of just general good intent. [00:10:00] I think it was later on in the next few years that we got more specific instructions about things to do and not to do.

AV: [00:10:13] And you remember what the Burley students coming in that fall, as well, would have -- did you hear about them getting any sort of orientation?

JS: [00:10:23] I didn’t. I don’t know. One of the things that incensed me thing was that first year -- well, it has been a tradition at Lane that they had elections for student council and class offices in the spring. So, they had had all the elections before the Burley kids came. And I mean, that was so stupid of them. And the one [00:11:00] -- boys at least had sports, but the girls had nothing but trying out for cheerleading. And that’s where they were all kinds of conflicts and tumult over cheerleading. And I can see why. It was their one chance to do something. And that was just very badly mangled, I think.

AV: [00:11:29] What do you remember about -- anything specific about those conflicts around cheerleading?

JS: [00:11:35] I just remember, as a new teacher who didn’t know anything, I was terrified by some of the screaming and yelling. I learned pretty quickly, you don’t try to reason with people who are screaming, which was pretty valuable to learn. That’s basically all I remember. [00:12:00] I never felt frightened in my own classroom with my own students. It was more out in the hall kind of stuff that happened. 

AV: [00:12:13] We’ve heard from a couple other people that we’ve interviewed that there might have been a ranking system for students at Lane. Do you remember anything about that, or how they made decisions that certain students ended up in certain levels of classes? 

JS: [00:12:29] I was a new teacher. I didn’t know anything. I mean, there were all those different levels and I felt like there were some very smart kids in low-level classes. I don’t know what part race played in that. I suspect it played a part, but I was too naïve. I was struggling to survive. (laughs) 

AV: [00:12:57] What was it like for you, at [00:13:00] the beginning, those first two years?

JS: [00:13:02] Exhausting. This is kind of funny, you all probably know, at the beginning of the year there’s always a week of in-service to get the teachers ready, and you prepare your classroom and everything. Well, I went to Lane, was there for the week of in-service, but they weren’t sure yet what I was going to teach. So, all week long, everybody else was getting ready, and I was waiting. And finally, on Friday afternoon, they told me what I was going to teach. And it was four different classes. There were two tenth grade classes, but one was general level, and one was remedial. And then, eleventh grade, I don’t know whether it was general or remedial. And then, [00:14:00] the basic composition. So here I am, I’ve never taught before, and I have four preparations a night, and I don’t know what I’m doing. (laughs) So, it was very stressful. In fact, I had a good friend from graduate school who had taught for five years and then came to graduate school, and I would call her every night, “Brenda, help.” (laughs) And she would say, “Get a pencil.” And she supplied me with at least half my lesson plans. And then, I ended up helping her get a job at CHS the next year. (laughs) So, that was good. But the best thing about that year was I lost 15 pounds. But it was hard. 

AV: [00:14:53] Do you remember there being Black teachers on staff at that time, and did the numbers change over the years that you were [00:15:00] there? Did they stay the same?

JS: [00:15:01] Definitely the numbers changed. And I’m sure there were Black teachers, but I don’t -- again, I was struggling to survive. And they were older teachers. I knew some of the other young teachers, the ones who happened to have a planning period when I did and we’d meet in the teachers’ lounge and they’d help me. (laughs) But I don’t remember much about Black teachers there. Later on, I do. I have good friends.

AV: [00:15:41] What was the environment like in your classroom? Do you remember students discussing race? Did you discuss race with them? Do you remember any specific occurrences of things that happened?

JS: [00:15:54] Oh, yeah.

AV: [00:15:55] And did you find yourself trying to build trust and [00:16:00] reach out and try to help some students that might have been struggling?

JS: [00:16:06] Definitely. I felt really sorry for -- and this continued throughout my teaching career. I felt really sorry for kids who were labeled as “bad kids.” And early on, I learned I needed to find out what was going on, how did they get that label? And not to label them. I mean, we’ve all done stupid things and we change. And I wanted them to know that I thought that they were -- there were a couple of kids who came to me to talk after school about -- there was one teacher in particular that they thought was a racist. And I don’t know whether he was or not. And I told them that. [00:17:00] I said, “Regardless, we’ve got to be realistic here about what you can do, what I can do,” and I just advised them to keep a journal, write down things that they thought were offensive, and if he ever crossed the line and did something that really was wrong, then they needed to report it. They had reported him already and said nothing had been done. I said, “Well, if something were done, you wouldn’t know about it. So, you keep on reporting what’s wrong, but also, realize that there are some things that you’re not allowed to know about.” And I don’t know. I felt like in my class, except for the very dramatic thing [00:18:00] that happened in my first class my first day of teaching, this big, burly, redneck guy stood at my classroom door, because he was about to enter, and said in a booming voice, “I hate,” and used the n-word. And it’s a wonder I didn’t faint. (laughs) And I think I said something like, “We don’t talk that way in here, sit down.” And that was that. And he was moderately ugly throughout the year, but not that dramatically so. And it wasn’t until May, we were reading an article on shoplifting in Scholastic Magazine, and I don’t know what possessed me but I called on him and I said, [00:19:00] “What would you do if you saw Charles shoplifting?” And the second it was out of my mouth I thought, “Oh my God, what have you done? I have asked this redneck what he would do if he saw this Black kid shoplifting.” And my whole class was expecting ugliness. And I kept blathering on, out of nervousness, and I ended up with, “How would you treat him?” And he finally responded with, “Very carefully.” And we all burst out laughing. It was such a release. And then, when the laughter stopped, he said, “Wait, Ms. Shields, I’ve got something else to say.” And I thought, “Oh, no. Here it comes.” And he said, “I just want to say I’m sorry.” And he explained that his attitude has come from his family and that’s the kind of talk they had at home, and he didn’t know any Black people, [00:20:00] and he said, “I was wrong. I’m sorry.” And the bell rang. And every Black kid in that class got up, and went over, and patted him on the shoulder. You can see, it still gets it -- beautiful. So, that was my finest moment out of 30 years of teaching. Loved it. 

AV: [00:20:31] Do you have other stories, things that you remember along those lines?

JS: [00:20:37] Not specifically racial things. One funny story my first week of teaching, when I knew nothing, I was in a basement room at Lane, it had big windows going out to the side parking lot. And it was sixth period, the last period of the day, [00:21:00] and suddenly, this kid raised his hands and said, “Ms. Shields, I don’t mean to be rude, but the bell rang.” And I said, “Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I don’t want you to miss your bus, I’ll see you tomorrow,” blah, blah, blah, and they left by means of the windows, out into the parking lot. (laughs) Which was my clue that I had been had. There were administrators patrolling out in the halls, so they wanted to go out through the windows. Well, I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t want to tell anybody I had been such a fool. And so, I didn’t do anything. Well, they came in the next day looking very sheepish and I didn’t say a word. The first bell rang and I still just didn’t know what to do. But I went to the board and I wrote, “Students one, teacher zero.” [00:22:00] And they all burst out laughing in enormous relief. And then I said, “But the game isn’t over.” (laughs) And I think that really helped set the tone for that year, which was good, because they were a bunch of jokesters, funny kids. So, I remember stuff like that. Another very dramatic thing -- no, several dramatic things. I had a kid draw a knife in class to defend me. (laughs) It was in the basic communication skills class and the class had just been totally out of control, just so noisy, and yelling across the room, and I couldn’t get them to stop. And finally, this kid stood up and said, “The teacher said shut [00:23:00] up.” And I wanted to say, “No, I didn’t say that, I said please be quiet.” But he pulled out his knife and I wasn’t going to argue with him. And so, trembling, I said, “Okay, the bell’s about to ring for lunch. When you come back, I don’t want to hear a sound. I’m going to have questions on the board, you sit down and write the answers.” And then, the bell rang and I called him back, and I don’t know whether I said, “Thank you,” first, or “Don’t ever do that again” first, but both messages were given. And the kids came back, they were terrified of him. They came back and were perfectly behaved. But the funniest part of the whole experience is, they were sitting there answering their questions, and my supervisor from the University of Virginia appeared. And he came in [00:24:00] sat down, and just sat and watched them all write. And the bell rang and the kids all left and he said, “Wow, you’ve really got a handle on discipline.” At which point I burst out crying. (laughs) And he was a wonderful supervisor. He was outdone with the assignments I had been given and the lack of help I had been given. And basically, this class had a 1938 grammar book. That was our textbook. Nothing else. And so, he gave me lots of ideas for using newspapers and creative things to make up for that. But basically, he was very encouraging and I needed it at that point. (laughs) 

AV: [00:24:55] What year was that? Was that early on? [00:25:00] And that tension that you were describing in the classroom, was that something that was common, or did you see that in the hallways, or was that something that was common in your classroom regularly, or was that sort of an anomaly?

JS: [00:25:12] That was sort of an anomaly. I mean, that class, made up of kids who all hated English and didn’t want to be there was the hardest one I had to teach. They were nice kids. They just were unruly. The racial tension I saw was in the hallways or in the cafeteria.

AV: [00:25:32] Can you tell me more about that?

JS: [00:25:37] Only in a vague sort of way. I was so out of it my first year. I was, again, struggling. I do remember, one of my favorite experiences was one day at lunch duty -- lunch duty was awful. Fights broke out at lunch. Fortunately, [00:26:00] there were men teachers and they bore the brunt of that, because the kids -- there was an unwritten rule that you didn’t fight women teachers. But most of these fights occurred when somebody tried to break in the lunch line, and either a faculty member would stop them and that kid would start getting belligerent, or some other kid behind him would get belligerent about his cutting in line, and there would be all kinds of ruckus. And my favorite experience was, one day, I don’t know what possessed me, but I saw this kid cut in line, and I just dreaded these scenarios, and I went up to him and I said very quietly, “You know, the ugly kids can get away with it, but I always notice the good-looking ones. You need to go back.” [00:27:00] And I can still see the expression on his face, like, “I’m all ready to fight but I don’t know how to deal with somebody who’s just called me good-looking.” (laughs) And he went right back to the back of the line. I remember Tommy Theodose coming over and saying, “What did you do?” And I said, “I’m not going to tell you. This is my secret weapon.” (laughs) So, I think I used it once or twice after that. But I was very glad. Because I was such a coward when it came to altercations. Just didn’t want them to happen.

AV: [00:27:45] Do you remember more about what was going on in the hallways? Were there fights? We read something that said there was police presence in some of those early years of desegregation. Did you notice that?

JS: [00:28:00] I was aware in a way of the fights, and I can remember screaming matches, but I don’t remember much about the particulars. I was terrified. And again, I learned very quickly, you just can’t reason with people when they’re in that state. But I think I was busy getting out of the way and if there was a fight in the hall, I’d close my door so my kids wouldn’t get involved. But I didn’t know much about what was going on out there.

AV: [00:28:37] Do you know what broke up the fights?

JS: [00:28:41] Mainly men teachers, I think. The blessed coaches, they were wonderful. I love Tommy Theodose and Joe Bingler. They were just Godsends. Because the kids respected [00:29:00] them, and they had such cute senses of humor. I’ll never forget, one day the kids all came into my class, and they were laughing. Either somebody had told them, or they’d been out there, Tommy Theodose had had the kids at football practice, I guess it was, and he picked two kids, a Black kid and a white kid, and had them stand up and run through some play. And they did it, and then he had them sit down, he said, “Now, do I have to show you everything in black and white?” And the kids just exploded with laughter. And really, I think the kids were so grateful for humor because there was so much tension that it was just very refreshing to have somebody who could deal with racial issues [00:30:00] but in a light-hearted way. 

AV: [00:30:05] And what do you think were the roots of all that tension?

JS: [00:30:11] Years of separation, not knowing each other, believing what their families told them. I think the school did not do a very good job of being proactive, that business of having elections before the Burley kids got there was just mean. And, I don’t know, young people, very emotional. There’s going to be a certain number of fights anyway, but the racial element just added to that. 

AV: [00:30:55] Do you remember the three walkouts at Lane, or do you remember any of those walkouts? [00:31:00] Can you tell me what you remember about them? I think there was one in the spring of ’68, and then there might have been one in the fall of ’68, and then one in ’72. Do you remember any of those?

JS: [00:31:15] I really don’t I remember bomb threats. We had a lot of bomb threats until the school was finally smart enough to make the kids make up the time they missed, and then that cut out the bomb threats. But the walkouts, I have a dim recollection, but nothing specific.

AV: [00:31:37] Some of that the people that we’ve interviewed mentioned walking out to Trinity Church. Did you ever know about that or were you aware of that happening?

JS: [00:31:47] I probably was at the time, but I don’t remember now.

AV: [00:31:54] Do you remember anything about the Black culture assembly that was created about the time, [00:32:00] I think the late ’60s?

JS: [00:32:05] Again, dimly, dimly, but not much.

AV: [00:32:12] Do you remember the Student-Faculty Human Relations Council that was created at Lane to address some of the grievances of the students that were -- or do you remember students leading the charge to try to do something about the tension, or any faculty members standing up for students, or trying to do something about the tension themselves?

JS: [00:32:35] I think there were a lot of faculty members who were trying, but in small individual ways. But again, that’s dimly familiar, but not enough that I could add any insight to it.

AV: [00:32:57] When you are guiding students working on the newspaper, [00:33:00] I think you may have mentioned, were you aware of any racial issues there, or were Black students allowed to write for the paper, and were they welcomed? 

JS: [00:33:13] As far as I know. I only had the paper one year and one of my students wrote what I thought was a very well-written criticism of something that I’ve long forgotten. I was told that the newspaper should not have negative stuff like that and I said, “Well, we’re a newspaper.” And they were not happy with me and I was not happy with them, so that was my year of handling the newspaper. (laughs) 

AV: [00:33:44] So, who was it that was telling you that they shouldn’t have certain content in the newspaper?

JS: [00:33:50] It was the principal. And I guess that was still [Mr. Hegel’s?] era.

AV: [00:33:57] So, was he just kind of regulating the newspaper, [00:34:00] or what was happening?

JS: [00:34:04] I don't know, he just really fussed at me for allowing the article to be printed and made it clear that that should not happen again. And I was not repentant. I said it was a well-written article, it was well-researched, and I didn’t feel apologetic about it. So, that was a guarantee that I would not have the newspaper again. 

AV: [00:34:27] Was it a race-related article? Do you remember that?

JS: [00:34:32] I don’t know. I think probably not, or at least only tangentially.

AV: [00:34:40] Do you remember what year that was?

JS: [00:34:42] No. I’m hopeless with years. I don’t do numbers. (laughs) 

AV: [00:34:51] Do you remember the UVA Consultative Resources Center? It was a group that was run by someone named Hank Allen for a while at UVA, [00:35:00] and they offered their services to different local public and private high schools, and middle and elementary schools, as well, and I think at one point they came to Lane and conducted some surveys, and then had some groups where they talked to some of the teachers about what could be done about easing race-related tension. Do you remember any of that?

JS: [00:35:23] I don’t remember. I don’t remember that. I mentioned, I remember a community group, very early on that first year, of, I know the Rev. Henry Mitchell was one of them, and Jane Foster was another, I think there were six of them, and they invited about six of us to meet with them at Trinity Church and they were just there to say, “We want you to know we support you and we want to know if we can help.” And it was very [00:36:00] freeing to know that that they cared enough to do that. I really appreciated that a lot. Lovely people.

AV: [00:36:10] Do you know, who was it of you that they invited? Was it faculty members? Were there any students there or parents there?

JS: [00:36:17] Faculty members. And I think we were all young faculty members. But I’m really dim about that.

AV: [00:36:28] Do you know how they chose which ones?

JS: [00:36:30] I have no idea.

AV: [00:36:31] And were the people that invited you to come, do you know if they were part of the Human Relations Council chapter, the NAACP here, or...?

JS: [00:36:42] Very likely they were. But I just knew them because, even though I was fairly new to Charlottesville, these were familiar names. They were important people in the area. 

AV: [00:36:57] And did they offer any sort of solutions [00:37:00] or were they asking you any specific questions?

JS: [00:37:08] The main thing that I got out of it was that they were there to help, and if we needed them, to call on them, and to know that they were backing us, 100 percent. I don’t remember specifics.

AV: [00:37:25] Do you know if anyone ever needed them, or called on them?

JS: [00:37:29] I don’t know. 

AV: [00:37:33] Were you aware of different student groups at Lane with various orientations, or objectives, in working on the different tensions going on at the school, like the African American club that was created, or the Lane Motorcycle Club that seemed to be rather contentious and frustrated about what was going on, or The Wrecking Crew that seemed to [00:38:00] be a group of African Americans who felt like they wanted to be activists in the ways that they dealt with the tensions going on? 

JS: [00:38:10] Only dimly was I aware of any of that. I just can’t emphasize enough that I was fighting for survival with four lesson plans a night with nothing that I had done before to help me out. In fact, my most embarrassing moment was, this same supervisor that came to that basic skills class, came to my sixth period class in the spring, and it’s the only time in my whole teaching career I assigned the kids a story and I didn’t have time to read it. And I came to class and I saw him and I thought, “Oh, dear God, what [00:39:00] have I done?” And I gave myself a pep talk and I thought, “I can handle this. I’m a teacher. I can do this.” So, I went in and I called on the smartest kid in class and I said, “Would you give us a summary of the story you read last night?” And he gave what seemed to be a very good summary. I was grateful to him. And I was looking at the questions in the book at the end of the story and I was about to go on, and then, one of the other smartest kids in the class said, “Ms. Shields, he got that wrong.” (laughs) It was like, “Oh, no.” I said, “Well, tell me what he got wrong.” And he told me, and I had a clue which one was right. So, I said, “Well, what do you say to that?” And they had this back and forth, back and forth. And finally, one of the characters in the class raised his hand, and I called on him, and he said, “Ms. Shields, you blew it, didn’t you?” [00:40:00] (laughs) And I said, “I always knew that you were very perceptive, and indeed, you have just proved it.” So, we all had a good laugh, including my supervisor, who said, “It happens.” So, that was fun. 

AV: [00:40:22] You were saying that that beginning was really overwhelming for you and challenging. How did it feel as time went on? Did things feel better, both for you and also in terms of what you were perceiving as the tensions in the classrooms, in the hallways, in the lunchrooms? 

JS: [00:40:39] Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I was just scared to death when I started out. I had so much to learn. And I still was working incredibly hard. My whole family teased [00:41:00] me that all I did was grade papers and plan lessons for the whole year. But I wasn’t as filled with angst as I was at the beginning. And I really grew to love my students. They were -- my whole teaching career, the first day of school, I’d go in and I’d think, “Oh, thank God, they only have one head apiece. They’re not monsters.” And as the year went by, I’d just get to know them more and more, and see what was lovable about them. So, that was a natural thing, every year.

AV: [00:41:44] And what about in terms of the tensions in the in the hallways and race relations as you were able to perceive them? Did you feel like that improved over the years, or what was that like?

JS: [00:41:55] Definitely improved over the years. [00:42:00] When there wasn’t so much shouting and there was more talking.

AV: [00:42:08] Do you know what brought about that shift from shouting to talking?

JS: [00:42:15] A lot of people caring, and I think the main thing is just kids getting to know each other and realizing that that other group is okay. They just needed time to get past the ignorance.

AV: [00:42:39] And what were those ways that they got to know each other? Were there any specific ways that you noticed African American students and white students really starting to have a safe environment to interact and get to know each other? 

JS: [00:42:55] Well, I think in class, that happened. Sports is the [00:43:00] obvious thing. I’ve always been a big sports fan. And particularly, there, I’m just in awe of Tommy Theodose and the other coaches and the way they accepted the kids, and they taught the kids to work together, with a great sense of humor, but also, the discipline that you need to work as a group. So, that was a big thing. And other school activities. But I think, mainly, it was just proximity. If you’ve heard your whole life untrue things about a group of people, it takes a while before you realize, hey, that’s not right. And I think it was a process of learning for everybody. 

AV: [00:44:00] As a sports fan, did you spend time going to any of the games or do you remember any of your students who were on some of the sports teams? Do you remember what their experiences were like, in terms of race or in terms of how they were experiencing desegregation in general?

JS: [00:44:22] I don’t remember. I knew a bunch of athletes. I didn’t get to many games because I was working so darn hard. And also, later on, when I had more time, I went to a lot of sports, but mainly the girls’ sports because I wanted to support them, and I, having played sports, wanted to see the sports I had played. So, again, I can’t remember much in the way of particulars. 

AV: [00:45:00] It’s my understanding that some of those girls’ sports teams began emerging at Lane in the late ’60s and early ’70s for the first time. What was it like for that to happen at the same time as African American students were first being welcomed onto those teams? Do you remember any specifics about what that was like?

JS: [00:45:21] Well, I remember one specific, because it made me so mad. The girls wanted to start a hockey team. And so, they went to, I guess, [Willie Burnett?], or somebody, and asked if they could use the field at some point to practice. And the only time they could find for the girls was, they could practice from 7:00 a.m. to 7:30 a.m. That was it. And so, no hockey team at that point. So, again, I don’t remember, [00:46:00] Title IX was the big thing, of course, that changed it all, thank heavens. I remember the boys wanting to start a lacrosse team, and actually, they came to me and asked me if I would sponsor them because the coaches wouldn’t. They were afraid they’d lose kids off baseball and track. And I loved lacrosse, so I said, “Well, of course I will.” And so, I sponsored the first public school lacrosse team in the state of Virginia. And they had a university student who really was the coach, I just signed the papers. But they got in trouble. They went up to play Episcopal High, and they decided to moon a policeman on the way home from the game, and I was called to the principal’s office the next day and they [00:47:00] said, “I think we need a real coach.” Which was fine with me. I wasn’t allowed to go to the games because I would have had to miss my classes. So, they did need a real coach. (laughs) I thought it was funny the way it came about.

AV: [00:47:21] What do you remember about African American students being welcomed onto sports teams? I know it was before your time in ’53 that the first African American students were allowed to play sports at Lane, but from analyzing the yearbooks and talking to people, we’ve discovered that it was sort of a slow trickle in of African American students that were both allowed to join -- cheerleading teams they weren’t even allowed to join until the early ’70s. So, what do you remember about that period?

JS: [00:47:56] Once again, very little. I don’t know. [00:48:00] It seemed to me, I was impressed by the way the kids handled integration, by and large. There were definitely some troublemakers, and I didn’t know them, personally, but I knew them by reputation. But most kids, I think, they were kids who were frightened, Black and white. But most kids tried to be decent, caring human beings.

AV: [00:48:44] And what was the influence of someone like Kent Merritt, who you said you knew or were aware of while he was there, what was the influence of someone who was a star athlete, who was a brave front runner as an African American student, being part of sports teams, [00:49:00] and being well-known by people? Did he have any sort of influence on the student body or building relationships, or what was that like?

JS: [00:49:10] I couldn’t give you specifics, but I think he had a profound influence. I know he had quite an influence on me. As I noted when I put that comment in the chatroom when I watched him online, he always behaved with such dignity. He was a gentleman, through and through. And I knew he was an awesome athlete but it was his decorum that really impressed me. And I’m sure that made an impression on many other people. And others of the athletes, he was just probably the most gifted and the most well-known. [00:50:00] And I do think athletics helped not only the members of the team, but those of us who would go to games and cheer for kids, regardless of skin color or background. That was a help, for sure. 

AV: [00:50:18] We’ve had some people who were students that we’ve spoken with who said the camaraderie on the field was strong, and even having people cheer for them that they didn’t necessarily know, that were just part of the school community, but sometimes they’d go back into the classroom and they’d feel isolated again. What did you notice in terms of your students’ relationships in your classes, those years?

JS: [00:50:53] That’s so hard. I don’t know. My mind went to something that happened -- [00:51:00] this was some years later, as I said, I don’t do numbers, but I had two Black kids in an advanced English class I had. And they were wonderful kids but one of them misbehaved a lot. And I remember calming him down one day and he responded with an expletive. And I said, “Okay, we’ve got to talk after class.” And it was the most satisfying talk I think I’ve ever had. First of all, he opened up about, didn’t I understand how nervous he felt being one of only two Black kids in the class? And I said, “I’m ashamed to say no, I didn’t think about it.” And I said, “You’re the smartest kid in this [00:52:00] room. And I just didn’t think about your feeling insecure.” And anyway, we talked, we got along, it cleared the air, and I thought it was good for him to know that I recognized how smart he was, and I’m sure that helped him overcome some of his discomfort, and it was way good for me to realize that I was being awfully blind to how hard that must be. So, there were episodes like that. 

AV: [00:52:33] And you said that was what later on. Do you remember if it was in the ’70s or if it was later than that?

JS: [00:52:39] It was at Lane, so it was before we came over to CHS, but beyond that, I don’t know. My first years, new teachers never get the A-level classes. They get the other kids. Which [00:53:00] is good, because you learn to appreciate how wonderful they are. And I’ve always liked my remedial kids and my bright kids. The remedial kids are more fun, and more open, and when I think back to experiences at school, I remember them with a lot of love. But the gifted kids were incredible. Strong students and fun. They’re wonderful kids. I miss teaching, but not enough to do it again. (laughs) 

AV: [00:53:51] Do you all have any questions? 

GEORGE GILLIAM: [00:53:54] I just have one. Did anybody formally, [00:54:00] or informally, offer an official welcome to the kids from Burley?

JS: [00:54:16] If they did, I’m not aware of it. Again, I was so incensed about their having the elections before those kids came, I was just angry about that. So, I might have been blind to the good things they did.

AV: [00:54:34] So, the following year, when the Burly students had been there maybe three-quarters of the year and then the elections happened, did that make a difference? Were they elected for things? Or was there so much tension that they didn’t really end up being elected for much?

JS: [00:54:53] I don’t remember. It certainly had helped with the tension. I mean, excluding them from the elections was just wrong. [00:55:00] And so, we got past that. And I would assume there were Black kids who were elected but I don’t remember the specifics. 

AV: [00:55:16] It’s reminding me of early on, I think it was probably ’69, there was a big fight where, allegedly, a Black assaulted the assistant principal, and then Black students walked out in support of him because maybe that wasn’t even true. Do you remember anything about needing to stand up for Black students or any issues, did you ever go to Trinity Church or see Henry Mitchell involved in any other sorts of...?

JS: [00:55:52] I didn’t. And I was pretty much just unaware. [00:56:00] I can’t tell you how hard I worked. There was no life beyond schoolwork.

AV: [00:56:09] In your English classes, and maybe it’s different for different levels, I know you said for some of them you had those very old textbooks, did you find that there was more representation of African American literature as more and more African American students, I guess by the time you got, there was total desegregation, but did you find that there was some representation of African American literature as you were teaching?

JS: [00:56:36] Not for too long. I think with reading lists, we tried to make those more representative. Textbooks were still -- it takes a long time to get textbooks changed, so they [00:57:00] were pretty much lily-white. It was just a long process to get more representation.

AV: [00:57:10] Do you remember anything about specifics about what that looked like? Were there students complaining about that, were you and other teachers working on that in any specific ways? 

JS: [00:57:26] The specifics was, back in those days, they had summer reading and we tried to make sure that the summer reading lists were more inclusive. I taught British literature, which is hard to make that more accessible. But wherever I could, I tried to. One of my heroes is Dr. Samuel Johnson and I always explained about how he left his estate to his Black servant whom he had freed from slavery, [00:58:00] and just incidental things like that. But it was just hard to bring in enough. But I think we worked very hard to do that, we just weren’t very successful for a long time.

AV: [00:58:22] Was it the lack of resources or were you hitting up against walls with the administration?

JS: [00:58:29] I think it’s lack of resources. And, of course, we needed educating, too. We’d have to find the books and read the books and then recommend the books. And when you’re preparing for five classes a day, it’s not easy to do a whole lot of other reading to find those books. So, it’s a hard process, but I think people worked very hard to get it done.

AV: [00:59:00] Lorenzo, do you have questions?

LORENZO DICKERSON: [00:59:03] I only have one, because you covered them just great. Just one, I was curious if you have been back into the, now, county office building since Lane closed, and if so, what was that like for you, going back into that building?

JS: [00:59:19] Do you know, I have not been back? And partly that was deliberate. In spite of the tumult, I have such blessed memories of Lane that I just don’t want to see the revamping. I want to remember it as it was, the good times and the bad times. (laughs) 

LD: [00:59:51] I think I have just one more. I’m curious, because I’ve heard that when Lane was opened, that folks didn’t enter through the big doors in the front, [01:00:00] where the staircase is. I was wondering if that was true and if so, where did you enter when you were there?

JS: [01:00:07] I entered on the side. There’s a door on the side next to that side parking lot, and that’s where I came in every day. I think I parked over there, too. Most people parked in back, but for some reason, I parked over there. I remember that well. The very first time I entered Lane High School, a kid was walking in front of me and let the door slam right in my face. (laughs) And I thought, “Oh, no. Please don’t let that be a sign.” (laughs) And it wasn’t. But no, I don’t think I ever used the stairs in the front of the building. Except, [01:01:00] I remember one picture we had taken out there, the Grendel Genealogical Society had their picture taken on the steps. That was it.

AV: [01:01:13] Do you remember, there was an underground newspaper that launched called The Blast. Do you remember anything about that?

JS: [01:01:22] I remember its existence, now that you’ve reminded me of it.

AV: [01:01:27] Do you know where it came from? It was really interesting, we found one issue of it is in special collection, and it’s got, I don’t know if you remember the student Larry Fortune who was there at the time, and it’s got a lot about walkouts and unity weekend. And, do you remember George Fry who got the nickname Cherry Pie?

JS: [01:01:48] Mm-hmm.

AV: [01:01:49] Do you remember anything about any of them or do you remember anything about anything you heard about that newspaper? We really don’t have much information about that.

JS: [01:01:58] I don’t. [01:02:00] Your mentioning it brings it all back, but I have no memories to add to it. I do remember those fellas. They were leaders.

AV: [01:02:15] So, what did that look like? Do you remember anything about what they did, or about them?

JS: [01:02:24] They were loud. (laughs) But the kids really respected them. They really did have incredible leadership skills. Beyond that, I don’t remember a whole lot.

AV: [01:02:42] Do you remember the Wall of Respect at the Carver Recreation Center? Black heroes were painted on the walls, and there was controversy between the city council and some people in African American community about whether [01:03:00] they would be allowed to keep those paintings on the walls. I think Larry Fortune really lead the charge in favor of keeping those on the walls. Do you remember anything about that?

JS: [01:03:12] I’m totally blank about that, but good for Larry Fortune. Wow.

AV: [01:03:17] Do you remember what it looked like to have those student leaders? Do you remember any sort of ways that they were able to be leaders? Do you remember the avenues that they used to bring people together?

JS: [01:03:34] I don’t. They had all the confidence in the world, and loud voices. And beyond that, I don’t know. Again, I was so absorbed in surviving that I missed a whole lot. And I had more to learn than anybody. [01:04:00] (laughs) I really did, about teaching, about this incredible assortment of humanity. One of the things I remember was, early on in class one day, I made an incidental remark. Somebody said something about a grandparent, and I made some remark related to that, and I had assumed that everybody loved their grandparents. I adored my grandparents. And some kid said, “I hate my grandmother.” And it was like, whoa. This is opening up a whole new world for me. (laughs) And again, I was so protected that there were things like that all the time that I just didn’t know and needed to know. One other very dramatic thing, [01:05:00] I had a Black student named Charles who was just a wonderful young man, soft-spoken, conscientious, polite. He was wonderful. And one day he came up to my desk before class and said, “Ms. Shields, I didn’t do my homework.” And stupid young thing that I was, I started, “Oh, Charles, I’m so disappointed,” blah, blah, blah, and he let me say my piece and then he said, “My sister was raped last night.” And oh, what a lesson. And I think that’s when I started listening before talking so much and realizing that [01:06:00] these kids knew so much that I didn’t know. That was quite an eye-opener. So, thank you, Charles.

AV: [01:06:13] Is there anything else that you would like to share, or discuss, or reflect on, that we haven’t covered?

JS: [01:06:21] I’ll think of something at midnight, but not right now. Thank you all for doing this. Thank you for lugging all this heavy equipment, Lorenzo, and thank you for preparing all these questions. It’s been fun. I feel like I’ve just been jabbering away. 

AV: [01:06:40] Thank you. It’s been such a gift to us as well. We really appreciate it. Thank you. 

JS: [01:06:46] Well, you’re doing a great job. Thanks. 

GG: [01:06:51] From this quiet observer sitting over in the corner, this was terrific. 

AV: [01:06:57] It really was.

GG: [01:06:57] Your stories are great. 

JS: [01:06:59] Well, [01:07:00] thank you. I love my stories. (laughs) 

AV: [01:07:04] Well, they mean something to us, too, so it’s really special. Thank you.

JS: [01:07:09] Good. The family is tired of hearing those, so I needed to branch out. (laughter) Well, thank you all so much for doing all this. And you did it well. I don’t think I did anything too horrible.

AV: [01:07:26] Oh, no. You were wonderful. You did it well. You don’t have to worry about any public speaking anymore.

JS: [01:07:34] Oh, good. 

 

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