Larry Kent

PHYLLIS LEFFER:     [00:00:00] Today is March 20, 2023.  We are doing an interview with Larry Kent, and we are at the Albemarle Charlottesville Historical Society.  I am Phyllis Leffler.  With me are George Gilliam and Lorenzo Dickerson.  So, welcome.  Thank you for being here today. 

LARRY KENT:    [00:00:21] Thank you. 

PL:  [00:00:24] As you know, from our earlier conversation, the historical society is doing a series of interviews with people who were high school students during the years of the desegregation of schools.  And our project started with interviews simply with athletes to try to find out whether athletics had any direct impact on the desegregation.  And since then, we’ve expanded out to talk with people about other activities that might’ve been involved in, in the high school.  [00:01:00] But, in your case, and we’ll get into this in just a little bit, you were both an athlete and involved in lots of other things at Albemarle High School.  So, I’m particularly interested in getting your perspective on those years.  But I want to start off a little bit earlier. Maybe you could -- I know you can help us by simply letting us know your date of birth. 

LK:  [00:01:30] 1952.

PL:  [00:01:32] 1952.  And day and month?

LK:  [00:01:34] August 29. 

PL:  [00:01:35] August 29, 1952. And where did you grow up, specifically?

LK:  [00:01:35] Crozet.

PL:  [00:01:43] In Crozet. 

LK:  [00:01:45] I was born at Martha Jefferson Hospital.  And lived in Crozet until I went away to college. 

PL:  [00:01:52] Can you describe your neighborhood?  What was your neighborhood like and what kinds of things were you engaged in with your neighborhood?  [00:02:00] Were you a regular church attender?  Did you participate in certain groups in your neighborhood?  What was that like for you? 

LK:  [00:02:17] It was sort of typical small town.  Typical like the way TV showed “Leave it to Beaver” and so on.  Just neighborhood -- it was near the park in Crozet.  And a bunch of kids, roughly the same age as me and my brother, who’s two years older.  And it was a dead end or cul-de-sac type of street, so we were out on our bicycles all the time.  Playing ball in the yards and climbing trees.  And everybody had six mothers because everybody’s mother was watching out for everybody else’s kids.  [00:03:00] And if you climbed a tree that went too high, you never knew whose mother it was really going to be that was yelling at you to get down.  “Get out that tree, or I’ll kill you.”  And, let’s see, there was probably seven or eight kids our age on that street.  And only about 10 or 12 houses, probably.  So it was a neighborhood full of kids.  And the next street up was the same way.  Yeah, we went to church every Sunday.  And played little league baseball at Crozet park -- had a field. That was one of the places we played. The field at Crozet school was one of the places we played and the field up at the Greenwood Community Center.  So there were four teams in the little league at that time.  It was great being next to the park because they had a swimming pool there, [00:04:00] and that’s where we lived in the summer.  Everybody just spent all their time at the pool.  My first job was a lifeguard at that pool, between my eleventh and twelfth grade year, I guess.  But anyway, bicycles, and baseball, and swimming.  Whatever sports were going on. 

PL:  [00:04:27] You said you had a brother?  An older brother?  And that’s your only sibling? 

LK:  [00:04:31] Right. 

PL:  [00:04:32] Okay.  That might enter our story just a little bit later. Did both of your parents work, or one of them? 

LK:  [00:04:40] Both did. 

PL:  [00:04:41] What kinds of jobs did they do? 

LK:  [00:04:43] My father was -- there was a big factory in Crozet called ACME Visible Records, which it stopped being that many years ago.  But when we were growing up, that was a big factory there.  And there was a Morton Frozen Food next door.  [00:05:00] I don’t know what that is now, either.  But most people that I knew had at least one parent working at one of those places.  So my father worked at ACME.  And he was a maintenance guy.  Kept the heaters and air conditioners running and that sort of thing.  The first job I remember my mother having was at the bank that was on Main Street there in Crozet.  And then she worked at Barnes Lumber Company.  It was in Crozet for quite a few years.  After she left the bank.  I remember we walked to school until they got bus routes.  And my friends and I would stop by the bank and bother everybody there, I guess, until they’d give us money to go across and get a banana split or whatever. 

PL:  [00:05:57] Was your neighborhood integrated at all, or was it just all white families there?  [00:06:00]

LK:  [00:06:01] All white families at that time. 

PL:  [00:06:03] And you said you were born in ’52.  And, of course, the Brown decision comes out in 1954.  You’re two years old.  (laughs) You’re not gonna remember any of that.  But you might remember some discussions with neighbors or friends or other parents or your own parents about the policies of integrating schools. Do you remember any of that?  Was that ever discussed?

LK:  [00:06:33] No.  I don’t have any memory of it.  The only thing I have that’s kind of related to that is I was aware that Charlottesville and Lane didn’t compete against each other.  And I had some vague memory that had to do with Lane being integrated and Albemarle wasn’t.  Or not yet or whatever.  But I’m not sure how much I’m remembering.  [00:07:00] And how much I heard since about what went on. 

PL:  [00:07:06] I think you meant Albemarle and Lane didn’t compete, right? 

LK:  [00:07:08] Yeah.  What’d I say? 

PL:  [00:07:09] You said, Charlottesville. 

LK:  [00:07:10] Oh, yeah.  Albemarle -- 

PL:  [00:07:11] -- Just for the record, Albemarle and Lane didn’t compete. 

LK:  [00:07:13] Thank you, yeah. 

PL:  [00:07:15] Right.  So what schools did you attend?  And do you remember the years?  

LK:  [00:07:23] Well, it should be pretty easy to figure out because there were only two.  I went to Crozet Elementary School from first grade through seventh grade.  And that would’ve been -- well, I was six when I started.  So ’58 and like ’65, I guess I finished.  And from there, I went straight to Albemarle High School for-- 

PL:  [00:07:45] In the eighth grade? 

LK:  [00:07:45] -- eighth through twelfth. 

PL:  [00:07:48] That is easy. Much easier than many of the other people. 

LK:  [00:07:52] Yeah.  We were the last class that did that.  Because they built the junior high schools Jouett and Henley.  [00:08:00] And when I was about to go to ninth grade, there was some debate about whether to move us to the middle school for one year and then we’d be back at Albemarle. But they decided not to do that. So, the middle school was just, at first, seventh and eighth grade.  We went to eight grade Albemarle, ninth grade Albemarle.  The next year, the middle schools went seven, eight, and nine.  And the high schools stayed 10, 11, 12. 

PL:  [00:08:32] So you’re at Crozet between ’58 and ’65.  At some point during that period of time, I’m assuming there must’ve been some integration that took place.  Do you remember? 

LK:  [00:08:50] I don’t think so. 

PL:  [00:08:51] You don’t think so. 

LK:  [00:08:52] I think the first integrated school I went to was Albemarle. 

PL:  [00:08:56] So you don’t remember any African-American children at Crozet?

LK:  [00:09:00] No. 

PL:  [00:09:00] As late as 1965?

LK:  [00:09:02] No. 

GEORGE GILLIAM:  [00:09:03] That sounds about right. 

PL:  [00:09:05] That sounds right?

GG:  [00:09:06] That’s probably correct. For Crozet, because the first schools started to desegregate in ’63 and Crozet wasn’t one of them.  It was only a certain number of schools.  And all of them didn’t.  so, that makes sense. 

PL:  [00:09:20] Okay.  Thank you.  But you started in Albemarle in 1959.  You’re in the eighth grade. 

LK:  [00:09:31] 1965. 

PL:  [00:09:31] I’m sorry, 1965. I’m sorry.  I wrote that down wrong.  You’re absolutely right, 1965.  You’re in the eighth grade and so, I’m just going to read out what we have about your activities.  You can correct me if I’m wrong, but this is what we’ve been able to collect.  Because it’s pretty extraordinary when you think about it.  So I have that you were on the football team for five years.  During which time, you were named the most valuable defensive back. [00:10:00] All District First team. All Centra Virginia Second team. You were captain of the football team and all state.  And then, for five years, you were also on the baseball team and were captain for two years.  And then for two years, you were on the basketball team.  Three years on the track team.  I can’t imagine how you had time for anything else.  Doing all this -- 

LK:  [00:10:31] Kept me from doing homework. 

PL:  [00:10:32] Kept you from doing homework, but that’s pretty amazing.

LK:  [00:10:37] To set the record straight -- our football team was undefeated the last two years.  And we had a pretty remarkable class.  And the coach named all the seniors captains. 

PL:  [00:10:49] Ah. 

LK:  [00:10:49] So I didn’t have to do anything except show up.  (laughs)

PL:  [00:10:54] Right.  But still, I mean you were incredibly busy with all these various athletic things.  [00:11:00] So you must’ve had a real penchant for athletics in those years.  And I mean, I know you said you grew up playing little league and things of that sort.  But this is football.  It’s basketball.  It’s track. 

LK:  [00:11:15] My parents were both athletic, too.  And so, it was always something going on when we’re able to pick up a ball.  There was somebody there to play with. 

PL:  [00:11:30] Now, let me go on and tell you what else you did.  You may not remember some of these things.  Because some of the people we talked to don’t remember some of what they’ve been involved in.  But I have that you were in the Monogram Club.  You were president of the French Club.  It looks like you were an actor in “Brigadoon,” possibly. 

LK:  [00:11:50] I was a dancer. 

PL:  [00:11:51] You were a dancer in “Brigadoon.”  You were in -- 

LK:  [00:11:55] My only qualification for that is that I was on the football team.  They sent the girls, said, “Go find somebody on the football team because they have to lift you.” [00:12:00] So, Rebecca Delaney got me. 

PL:  [00:12:06] You were in the National Honors Society.  You were class president of the eighth grade.  You were class representative in the ninth grade.  And then, you were vice president of both the junior and senior classes.  Two years as powder puff coach.  I’m hoping you can tell us what that was about.  So, not only are you playing all these sports, but you’re doing a ton of other things in the high school as well.  You know, student government in a variety of capacities.  Participated in some of the dramatic activities.  You actually had some responsibility, I would imagine, as well on student council.  So, knowing all of this, [00:13:00] knowing all of these kinds of activities. I’d like you just to reflect on what you think the atmosphere was like for you at Albemarle High School.  I know that’s a very broad question, but I want you to take it in whatever direction you’d like. 

LK:  [00:13:16] I don’t know.  I wasn’t a very serious student.  I mean, I made pretty good grades for the most part. Foreign language and math came pretty easy to me.  And I enjoyed doing them, so it didn’t seem like I was working very hard, even though I was probably putting in a lot of time.  My brother is and was a reader, but I’m not.  I wasn’t then.  It was like pulling teeth to get me to read the books to keep up with English class and so. I don’t know.  I mean, it was -- I will say it was more of a social gathering. [00:14:00] My friends on the sports teams, we’d hang out together.  Riding the bus together because, ride the bus to Crozet, Charlottesville.  And had to have an athletic bus that took everybody home after practice.  Drive all over the county.  So it was plenty of time to hang out with your friends.  Discover that girls are pretty interesting.  That took a lot of time.  (laughs) I don’t know. 

PL:  [00:14:40] What do you remember about relationships with teachers, for example?  Did teachers reach out to students in those years, or was there a kind of formal relationship? 

LK:  [00:14:54] Well, it was -- there was formal in terms of respectful.  [00:15:00] We didn’t call each other by first name.  Of course, they called us by first name because we didn’t call the teachers’ first names.  But I had some teachers I was crazy about.  I didn’t have any that I really disliked or felt like I couldn’t get along with.  And the coaches were mentors and really important to me.  I had good relationships with, I’d say all of them, as far as I know. 

PL:  [00:15:34] Can you talk about the coaches a little bit more? 

LK:  [00:15:36] Well, the head football coach was Ralph Harrison.  And he’s passed away, but until the day he died, if he walked in the room with me, I would’ve gotten nervous and afraid of him. 

PL:  [00:15:50] Why? 

LK:  [00:15:51] He was a tough taskmaster.  I mean, he was fair, and he was a great, brilliant coach.  [00:16:00] I still talk to people today about playing football in those days and talking about the way he had to study film.  Learning tendencies of the other team, your opponents. Installed pro-style offense in 1968, and that was pretty weird for that time.  Anyway, the associate head coach, I guess, Jim Arbaugh also brilliant and tough on us.  They worked us hard.  But learned to respect them.  Baseball coaches I had the same sort of situation.  Basketball -- I only went as far as J-V basketball.  Tenth grade was the last time I played basketball.  But football and baseball, they were every year. 

PL:  [00:16:59] So when you said Jim Arbaugh, [00:17:00] is that A-R-B-A-U-G-H?

LK:  [00:17:03] Yes. 

PL:  [00:17:04] Good.  (laughs) What do you remember about the racial composition of the teams?

LK:  [00:17:16] I can’t really give you percentages or numbers or whatever.  I remember some of the best players were Black.  And I don’t remember any issues over race.  I’m sure it would be different if I was 
Black.  But I don’t recall any sort of racial tension.  It was the 60s and that was a big part of society.  And we took history and government classes.  And I think I mentioned to you before that last couple of years of school, [00:18:00] any time I had some kind of research paper, it always seemed to be about race or leaders, like Martin Luther King or Malcom X or people like that.  I was studying and learning about what was going on.  And I played in a band with -- it was, golly, there were so many of us, we never made a nickel.  I think it was like five or six, white instrumentalists and five Black singers out front.  Doing the Temptations and Four Tops and all the Motown stuff.  So we were together outside of school to practice and talk about what music we were going to do and what clothes we were going to wear and all that.  it’s just -- as far as the makeup of the sports team or the classroom, I don’t know, I’d say it seemed to me, [00:19:00] in the classrooms it seemed to be a lot more heavier white.  Higher percentage of white.  Sports teams was less so. 

PL:  [00:19:12] Albemarle High School would have changed somewhat in terms of its racial composition once Burley closed.  And then many more students were forced, really, to transfer into Albemarle because there wasn’t the all-black county and city high school anymore.  So, and you would’ve already been at Albemarle High School.  So, do you remember any significant change when that happened?  Any school issues that arose?  Clearly, the sports team become more integrated.  But do you remember that being an issue for some people in the school? 

LK:  [00:19:58] I don’t remember it being -- [00:20:00] I’m sure it must’ve been.  I was aware that the percentages changed.  But I don’t remember anybody being bent out of shape about it.  I’m sure there were people who were, but I don’t recall that.  That didn’t get into my life or consciousness, that people were having a hard time with this. 

PL:  [00:20:31] We know that at Lane High School that there were numerous tensions and there were periods where there were walkouts and there were students that sort of were holding activities, not so much in protest but maybe in support of racial integration. Do you remember anything like that going on at Albemarle?

LK:  [00:20:57] I don’t remember anything like that.  [00:21:00]

PL:  Since you were a class officer and involved in student government, extensively, you might have known, had it been going on.

LK:  [00:21:07] Yeah.  I don’t remember that our student government being much of a thing.  I don’t think there was ever a meeting.  I don’t know. It was probably a popularity contest. We made a few speeches in the cafeteria and they voted.  Elected officers, thanks, see you next year. 

PL:  [00:21:28] What do you remember about the principal? 

LK:  [00:21:30] Mr. Hurt?

PL:  [00:21:30] Mm-hmm. 

LK:  [00:21:32] I was crazy about him. 

PL:  [00:21:33] You were crazy about him?  Why? 

LK:  [00:21:38] I don’t know. Just his personality, his interest in the students.  And until the day he died, he could probably name everybody that went through there when we he was principal.  That is remarkable.  I saw him on his 99th birthday.  I happened to be over at the place where he was living, and my mother was living there, too.  [00:22:00] She said, “We just had a birthday party for Mr. Hurt.”  I said, “Really?  I didn’t know he lived here.”  She said, “Yeah.  Go and see him.”  So we walked in, and she said, “Mr. Hurt, Larry -- Larry stopped by.”  And he says, “You still playing music?”  I mean, literally, this was like five years ago.  I graduated in 1970, so you do the math.  I hadn’t seen him since. 

PL:  [00:22:31] That’s fantastic.

LK:  [00:22:32] Yeah.  He’s got an incredible memory.  I don’t know if easy for him, or if he studied yearbooks constantly in his off hours.  But he knew everybody by name and something about ’em. 

PL:  [00:22:46] We’ve heard this from other people, too, about Mr. Hurt.

LK:  [00:22:49] I’m sure you have. 

PL:  [00:22:51] Yeah. Mm-hmm.  Were there any Black teachers at your school, that you remember? 

LK:  [00:22:58] I remember that A.P. Moore, [00:23:00] who was one of the football coaches as well, I think all the coaches had to teach something that it might be driver’s ed or P.E. or whatever.  He’s the only one I remember. 

PL:  [00:23:18] Was he a football coach -- you were under his auspices for a while? 

LK:  [00:23:25] Yeah.  He was one of the assistants. 

PL:  [00:23:28] And we know that he came over from Burley.  That when Burley closed, he went to Albemarle and assumed that role.  What do you remember about him? 

LK:  [00:23:39] I tell you, he had to have been a great line coach because our line was monsters on both sides of the ball.  Guards and tackles -- he knew how to teach that.  And he had the same kind of personality as a coach that Harrison Arbaugh did.  He was tough but fair.  [00:24:00] And really knew his stuff.  I think about the integration and Burley closing and those students coming over to Albemarle probably had -- and as well as Coach Moore -- had an awful lot to do with us winning two state championships the last two years.  Because we got some great football players out of that. And one great coach. 

PL:  [00:24:29] Do you remember the names of any of those football players who came over from Burley?

LK:  [00:24:35] I can’t promise where each of them came from, but I remember Nat Wright was one of our best players.  He was all-state, twice, I guess, running back.  Great punt returner.  Alvin Howard. 

PL:  [00:24:52] Alvin?

LK:  [00:24:52] Alvin. 

PL:  [00:24:53] Alvin Howard. 

LK:  [00:24:57] Nose tackle.  Had no business being as good as he was ’cause he was small.  [00:25:00] But he was ferocious. 

PL:  [00:25:05] Would you know if any of those people are still around? 

LK:  [00:25:08] I don’t know. 

PL:  [00:25:09] Lorenzo, do you know those names?

LORENZO DICKERSON:  [00:25:12] No, no. 

PL:  [00:25:19] What do you remember about the cheerleading teams? 

LK:  [00:25:24] Cute girls.  (laughs)

PL:  [00:25:26] Cute girls. (laughs) Yeah.  You didn’t have much relationship with those?

LK:  [00:25:31] Well, I did. 

PL:  [00:25:32] I mean they showed up --

LK:  [00:25:32] From time to time. 

PL:  [00:25:34] They showed up at the games, for sure. 

LK:  [00:25:37] They weren’t part of the day to day -- well, you know, what we were doing. 

PL:  [00:25:44] So -- I might be getting my years wrong, so but there was a controversy at some point about there not being any Black cheerleaders on the team.  [00:26:00] I think that would’ve coincided with the years you were there.  I would need to double check. 

LK:  [00:26:03] I wouldn’t be surprised, but I don’t remember anything about it. 

PL:  [00:26:06] And then, I think Mr. Hurt arranged for the team to be made a little larger so that there would be some Black students on it as well.  Some Black young women, but I would have to go back to my records to check out those precise dates.  But anyway, that didn’t enter your consciousness a lot. 

LK:  [00:26:27] I wasn’t aware of anything like that. 

PL:  [00:26:30] So, when we met -- one question before that -- how do you think sports influenced the desegregation process at Albemarle High School, if at all?  What did sports, and all the different teams you were on, have anything to do with desegregated the school in a way that was perhaps more accessible that it might otherwise be.  [00:27:00] Or do you have any sense of what role sports played in general? 

LK:  [00:27:17] Well, I don’t know how widespread this was, so I don’t have any idea if it was universal or not. But I know that I had a lot more contact with the Black students because of athletics than I would have if I had just -- somebody that showed up and went to classes and so on.  You can’t segregate a football team as far I know. I mean, it would be crazy.  I suppose it’s been done, but the sports teams were not -- once you’re out there, you’re putting on a uniform and that’s your team.  And you get to know people.  [00:28:00] Especially in pre-season camp.  I mean, that’s really hard work, and it’s hot.  And everybody’s going through it hoping to survive another day. (laughs) And you just form a bond with your team that way.  And that carries on in your life.  And you know, like I said, I was playing music with the Black kids that became my friends and people I respected their musical abilities and--

PL:  [00:28:39] So, how did you meet those kids? 

LK:  [00:28:45] I don’t know.  I mean, some of them were athletes as well. One went on to play in the NFL, a guy named Walter White. 

PL:  [00:28:55] Oh yes, of course. We’ve heard of Walter.  Sorry he’s no longer with us.  [00:29:00]

LK:  [00:29:00] I know.  His brother was the leader of this group. His brother was a couple of years older than me, and Walter, a year behind me.  His brother, James, was the lead singer and sort of the brains behind the arrangements and all that.  He had very charismatic -- still can’t believe he didn’t become super famous. Great voice and stage presence and charisma.  He was a star. 

PL:  [00:29:34] Is he still alive? 

LK:  [00:29:35] I don’t know. 

PL:  [00:29:36] So you haven’t been able to stay in touch with him over the years? 

LK:  [00:29:40] No. 

PL:  [00:29:40] He’s be an interesting person for us to talk with.  Yeah. 

LK:  [00:29:45] He would be -- 

LD:  [00:29:47] He lives in Florida. 

LK:  [00:29:47] Does he?

PL:  [00:29:49] Oh, I think that yeah. 

LD:  [00:29:50] I believe so.  Jacksonville.

LK:  [00:29:53] Okay. 

PL:  [00:29:57] Oh, right.  He’s associated with Myrtle White and -- 

LD:  [00:30:00] And Phyllis. 

PL:  [00:30:00] And Phylissa Mitchell. Right, she gave us his name.  But I’ve not actually been able to reach him. So I would like to.  That would be great if I could.  So -- 

LK:  [00:30:13] If you do, tell him I said, hey?

PL:  [00:30:16] (laughs) If he ever got up here, we would arrange a reunion.  (laughs)

LK:  [00:30:22] Great.  I’d love to see him. 

PL:  [00:30:22] So, tell me now about this musical group.  Because I was very intrigued by that when we talked earlier.  This was not through the high school.  This was outside of school?

LK:  [00:30:35] Right. 

PL:  [00:30:36] And so, just describe what that was like and how these groups formed and what you did? 

LK:  [00:30:45] I’m not sure if I know the answer to that.  It’s kind of somebody knew somebody who knew somebody and asked me, “Do you play keyboards? Do you play guitar?  Let’s get together and do this.”  [00:31:00] It seemed like to me the first thing that I played with that group was there was a talent show contest, something. 

PL:  [00:31:11] At school?

LK:  [00:31:11] At school.  And we won it. 

PL:  [00:31:17] You won it? 

LK:  [00:31:17] Yeah. 

PL:  [00:31:18] You won the talent show.

LK:  [00:31:21] And I’m still waiting to get paid for that.  (laughs) No. That was fun.  And, you know, the auditorium’s full and everybody went crazy. So we won that 

PL:  [00:31:35] And what did you do at that talent show?  Do you remember what you played?  No. You have no idea.  Okay. (laughs) Too long ago. 

LK:  [00:31:43] I remember James was amazing because he did kind of a James Brown thing in one of the songs.  You know, with the getting so worked up he’s down on his knees, and somebody comes out with a cape and helps him off.  If you’ve seen the James Brown thing, [00:32:00] you know instantly what’s happening when he starts this and moves.  My memory of it is great.  But I don’t remember what songs we did. 

PL:  [00:32:11] So you performed at school and also outside of school?

LK:  [00:32:17] Yeah.  That, like I said, I think that was our first gig we did, and you know, we thought we were stars all of a sudden.  So let’s keep it going.  So we got together at our drummer’s house and rehearsed when we could. We played a few shows but it didn’t ever really take off.  Like I said, there was so many of us, we weren’t ever gonna make $10.  (laughs) 

PL:  [00:32:47] Do you remember any of the venues that you would’ve played at? 

LK:  [00:32:51] I just remember one that was, what you’d call a Black club or whatever.  It was the guys in the band with only white people in there.  [00:33:00] And I don’t remember what part of town it was. Twenty-nine South, Old Lynchburg Road or somewhere, but -- 

PL:  [00:33:10] Could you say that again?  The guys in the band were --

LK:  [00:33:13] The white guys in the band were the only white people in this -- 

PL:  [00:33:16] In this venue. 

LK:  [00:33:16] -- in this venue, yeah. And that was a first for me.  I wasn’t uncomfortable or anything like that. It wasn’t an intimidating thing. I just noticed it.  We played our thing; they liked it.  And didn’t pay us a thousand dollars or anything. 

PL:  [00:33:40] So there are a lot of people who’ve told us that, in the course of these interviews, that they -- that the teams became desegregated and people played together and they respected one another because of their talents.  [00:34:00] Very few people have told us that they ever socialized cross racially.  But clearly, through these music gigs, you did. Or at least, you worked together --

LK:  [00:34:17] Yeah. 

PL:  [00:34:18] --that way.  Did that lead to socializing together?

LK:  [00:34:23] Well, a little bit but not much.  I mean, I don’t recall ever getting together with a mixed group to go out to dinner. Let’s go -- 

PL:  [00:34:42] To the movies. 

LK:  [00:34:44] -- and in my experience, the lunchroom was pretty segregated.  I mean, not through any “Whites Only” signs or anything like that, but white kids sat with other white kids.  And the black kids sat with other black kids.  [00:35:00] I don’t know how that would feel from the other side of the room.  It feels -- now I just can see what you’d call, white privilege or whatever.  It wasn’t a problem for me. 

PL:  [00:35:24] Clearly. Clearly. 

LK:  [00:35:30] I don’t know if I didn’t notice because I was just oblivious or I don’t know what.  But I’m aware that that was the situation. 

PL:  [00:35:43] What did you do after high school? 

LK:  [00:35:47] First, I went to Hampton Sidney College.  I went there only one year.  I played baseball and football. 

PL:  [00:35:59] Baseball and football at Hampton Sidney.  [00:36:00] Wow. 

LK:  [00:36:04] But again, just one year.  And then I dropped out and I went to work for the Albemarle County School System in the maintenance department.  Painting schools. 

PL:  [00:36:15] Following in the father’s footsteps. 

LK:  [00:36:17] I guess, yeah.  I had done that in the summer.  A couple of summers they’d hire teenagers to go paint the buildings and classrooms and that kind of thing.  And anyway, when I didn’t go back to school, I asked if I could stay on full time.  So I did that for two years.  And then went to VCU and majored in music and kind of started all over. 

PL:  [00:36:46] And then, I know that you ended up leaving this region entirely for a while, right? 

LK:  [00:36:52] Yep.  After I graduated VCU, I went to the University of Miami to get a masters in piano.  [00:37:00] And I stayed down there for a while.  And then moved back here and did office things and try and figure out what I was going to do.  And I got married and my wife said, “You should be doing music full time, looking at doctoral programs.”  So then, I went to South Carolina and got a doctorate in music and then since then I’ve been doing -- I’ve taught through colleges and privately.  And I’ve played and conducted groups, classical stuff and now I’m back here doing rock and roll again, so. 

PL:  [00:37:47] Doing rock and roll. 

LK:  [00:37:48] I could’ve saved a lot of time if I had just played in rock and roll bands. 

PL:  [00:37:52] Oh, you are? 

LK:  [00:37:52] Yeah. 

PL:  [00:37:52] So you’re back playing in bands?  Oh, that’s cool.  That’s really interesting.  [00:38:00] And working at the Front Porch, yes?  This is sort of part time thing at the Front Porch?

LK:  [00:38:06] Yeah.  I’m there three days a week for about three or four hours. 

PL:  [00:38:13] Great.  Well, George, you have some questions? 

GG:  [00:38:18] I have no questions.

LD:  [00:38:21] I just have one.  I’m curious because, let’s see, 1963, Kennedy is assassinated, you would’ve been at Crozet at that time

LK:  [00:38:31] Mm-hmm. 

LD:  [00:38:32] And then, ’68, Dr. King, you were in high school. 

LK:  [00:38:37] Right. 

GG:  [00:38:37] I’m curious as to just what you remember of those two incidents when those occurred? 

LK:  [00:38:46] Yeah.  When Kennedy was assassinated, I just remember it had happened.  We were at school.  I guess it must’ve been the 22nd, the day before Thanksgiving, [00:39:00] maybe? 

PL:  [00:39:01] Yes.  Yes, it was.

LK:  [00:39:05] That was back when we only got two days off for Thanksgiving.  (laughs) Now, everybody’s off the whole week.  Yeah, I remember getting the news and everybody being very upset about it.  We didn’t find out much detail until I got home, and it was on the news.  And we were all watching TV when Jack Ruby shot Oswald in the jail.  So it was kind of like an ongoing story and all.  And when Dr. King was killed, that was really horrible time.  That was Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King all just -- it seems like all in the same week, but I know it wasn’t.  But it was just really sad.  And that was on TV all the time.  [00:40:00] And, of course, you still see it on the TV.  Just hard to remember what I recall from that time.  And what I recall from 50 years of seeing it replayed.  But that was also very upsetting.  And then way more because I was older.  And like I’d mentioned earlier, I had a lot of reading and writing and research and that sort of thing about the civil rights movement and some of the key figures in it.  So that was, not exactly a personal loss but I felt a real sense of loss and tragedy when that happened.  I don’t know if that answers your question. 

LD:  [00:40:51] It does. 

LK:  [00:40:52] Okay. 

PL:  [00:40:53] Do you remember anything happening at school around either the Martin Luther King assassination or the Kennedy assassination?  [00:41:00] Don’t remember it being discussed or assemblies or anything of that sort? 

LK:  [00:41:08] I don’t recall anything specifically. 

PL:  [00:41:13] Uh-huh

LK:  [00:41:15] But I remember it was a topic in the locker rooms.  My black teammates were really hit hard by that.  And, you know, we put arms around each other. 

PL:  [00:41:32] Right, yeah. 

LK:  [00:41:32] Not knowing what to say. What can you say?  But “I’m there for you, man.”  That kind of thing. 

PL:  [00:41:42] Do you have any recommendations of other people you think would be good to talk to for this project from Albemarle?

LK:  [00:41:52] Well, my brother, he was an excellent track athlete.  He was a very fast runner.  He was class of ’68.  [00:42:00] Rex Layman. 

PL:  [00:42:16] Rex?

LK:  [00:42:18] Rex. 

PL:  [00:42:18] Layman.

LK:  [00:42:19] He was my best friend. 

PL:  [00:42:21] L --

LK:  [00:42:21] L-A-Y-M-A-N.  He’s in the area somewhere, right.  I’m thinking Palmetto, maybe.  We connected on Facebook, but I haven’t really--

PL:  [00:42:34] What was he involved with at the school? 

LK:  [00:42:36] He was our place kicker on the football team and all-district first baseman on the baseball team. 

PL:  [00:42:50] It seems like James White, if he would talk to us, either virtually or in person, would be a good person to connect with.  [00:43:00] 

LK:  [00:43:09] George Bates is around here somewhere.  He’s somewhere -- I don’t know if he’s right in Charlottesville, but somewhere in Virginia.  He’s an attorney now, I think.  He was defensive back on the football team. 

PL:  [00:43:26] George, we spoke to one of the Bates’ at your house.  Was that Otto Bates or--

GG:  [00:43:35] I don’t remember. 

PL:  [00:43:36] Yeah. 

LK:  [00:43:38] Otto was an athlete as well.  I think he’s George’s older brother, but they may have been cousins.  I’m not sure.  George was younger.  George was brilliant and went to Princeton. 

PL:  [00:43:51] Right.  I think he may not be in this area anymore, but I’m not sure.  Do you know. George Bates?  [00:44:00]

LD:  [00:44:02] I saw George a few years ago.  He was still here.  Ottos’ here. Johnny is here.  Yeah, last time I saw George, he was here.  But that was, maybe four or five years ago.  Something like that. 

PL:  [00:44:24] Is there anything else you would like us to know about your high school experiences in general?

LK:  [00:44:31] You know more than I do already.  (laughing)

PL:  [00:44:37] It’s a long time ago, I know that.  Okay, well thank you.  I find what you had to say me earlier, you know, specifically about your engagement with these musical groups to be a real addition to our project here.  [00:45:00] Because I think it speaks to the way that people can get together and build friendships.  You know, through the activities that they engage in.  And if athletics was one mechanism for bringing people together in a cooperative way, do you think music played the same role or a different role than the athletic role?  Did it allow you -- what was the difference?  Is there a difference between this cooperation through these musical groups as opposed to the cooperation that happened on school teams? 

LK:  [00:45:45] I would say it’s similar but different in at least one important way.  That is that musicians there’s no head coach or general manager or whatever.  It’s you all figure it out.  Every group it’s different.  [00:46:00] How’s it going to work.  Who’s the strong personalities.  Who are the leaders?  Who are the followers?  Who are the, I-don’t-care; I’ll-do-whatever-you-want.  There’s none of that on a sports team.  The coach sets the agenda and the atmosphere really comes from the coach’s personality.  So, it’s different but it’s similar because you’ve all got one goal.  And, you know, if you don’t share that goal, it's not gonna work. 

PL:  [00:46:35] Right.  And do you see any other mechanisms, not mechanisms but any other participatory activities that work in that same way?  Like, did it work the same way in student government? You said you didn’t do a whole lot. But, I mean, can you think of other activities that you think bring people together who might not otherwise be engaged with one another?  [00:47:00]

LK:  [00:47:11] Nothing really comes to mind.  Like I said, student government really wasn’t an active thing.  We didn’t govern anything.  I don’t know what it was meant for. 

PL:  [00:47:28] Drama? 

LK:  [00:47:30] Drama probably.  I’m sure that would be.  And chorus and orchestra and things like that.  But I didn’t do any of that.  The drama, my part in it was really small.  My part in it was lift the girl.  Try to sing. But I wasn’t really there for the drama part of it.  Becky Dulaney was.  She was my girlfriend.  [00:48:00] She was our valedictorian.  She’s still around somewhere. 

PL:  [00:48:03] Becky Delaney?

LK:  [00:48:03] Dulaney.  A retired schoolteacher here in Charlottesville, I’m pretty sure. 

PL:  [00:48:11] Is that -- can you spell Dulaney. 

LK:  [00:48:13] D-U-L-A-N-E-Y.

PL:  [00:48:16] Okay, thank you. 

LK:  [00:48:20] Bobby Coleman. Have you talked to him?

PL:  [00:48:22] No. 

LK:  [00:48:24] He’s still around. Or was as of a couple of years ago. I saw him.  He played bass in the band that I was in.  And he was a wide receiver on the football team. 

PL:  [00:48:36] Oh. 

LK:  [00:48:37] And I think he played basketball a couple of years. 

PL:  [00:48:40] Diverse talents. 

LK:  [00:48:44] Yeah.  Mike Harrison.  Talked to him?  He was Coach Harrison’s son. 

GG:  [00:48:50] We’ve got him on the list. 

LK:  [00:48:50] Okay. 

PL:  [00:48:53] Yeah, right. 

LK:  [00:48:54] Good basketball and baseball player. 

PL:  [00:48:59] Well, thank you. [00:49:00]

LK:  [00:49:02] You’re welcome.  Thank you. 

PL:  [00:49:05] I’ve enjoyed this. Thanks so much. 

LK:  [00:49:07] You’re welcome. 

END OF AUDIO FILE