Mark and Nancy Tramontin

PHYLLIS LEFFLER: [00:00:00] Well, today is the 25th of May, 2023.  We are at the house of Nancy Tramontin, and with Nancy today is Mark Tramontin.  And they have graciously agreed to do an interview for the No Playbook Project -- as we're now calling it -- of the Albemarle Charlottesville Historical Society.  So first let me say thank you so much for being here and being with us.  I'm going to ask each of you just a little bit of basic information, and then we’ll move forward with some more general questions.  So, first of all, Mark, can you tell me what your date of birth is?

MARK TRAMONTIN:[00:00:47] Yes, October 20, 1949.

PL: [00:00:50] October 20.  And, Nancy, your date of birth?  Oh, you're not going to tell.  (laughter)

NANCY TRAMONTIN: [00:00:56] (laughs) September 24, 1954.

PL: [00:01:00] Okay, great.  And what was the specific address in Charlottesville at which you grew up?

MT: [00:01:10] 1611 Bruce Avenue. 

PL: [00:01:15] Can you describe that neighborhood?  What was it like as a neighborhood as a child?

MT: [00:01:22] A lot of young families.  We had carpools that the different parents did.  It was a neighborhood where if your parents weren't home, you knew where to go.  I mean the parents got together and always had this big plan that if your mom and dad weren’t there, you went to the [Ritz's?], or you went to the [Davidson's?], or, you know, any number of families that lived on the street.  So it was a pretty tight-knit group.  

NT: [00:01:49] We also had a faculty member -- was it [Mr. Stovall?] -- who had -- was it Robert Frost who came?

MT: [00:01:56] Yeah, we got to see Robert Frost.

NT: [00:01:58] Robert Frost came to our street.  (laughs) [00:02:00] We got to see him and meet him.  So it was a neighborhood of -- some university faculty, and then, of course, our dad was superintendent of schools.  There was a -- [Dr. Hannah?] lived right next door right to us.  It was the day when professionals like that didn't live in these huge mega homes, it was a very modest neighborhood, but with professionals who lived there and lots of kids like Mark said.

PL: [00:02:29] And how old were each of you when you came to Charlottesville?  I’m sure I could do the math, but I --

MT: [00:02:35] Ten.

PL: [00:02:36] So you were 10; and, Nancy, you would have been --

NT: [00:02:39] Five and a half, six, yeah.

PL: [00:02:40] Five and a half.  And you moved from Michigan?

MT: [00:02:44] Chicago.

PL: [00:02:45] From Chicago.  From Chicago, Illinois.  And that was where you had both -- each of you had lived there for the rest of your -- for your life prior to coming?

MT: [00:02:55] For one year.

PL: [00:02:57] One year.

MT: [00:02:58] Yeah.  (laughter)

PL: [00:02:58] Okay, and before --

MT: [00:03:00] We moved around a lot.  Prior to that, we lived in Michigan.  I was born in Ann Arbor, and Nancy was born in Pontiac.  And we lived in Drayton Plains, we lived in Ponticac, and those were the places that we were until our dad took a job at the University of Chicago.  

PL: [00:03:19] And why did you move so frequently?  Was there a reason?

NT: [00:03:23] I was rereading their Christmas letters the other day, and dad -- that dad mostly wrote (laughs) --  he's like, “Well, we're getting bored with this town again, we're going to move on, try some new adventures.”  I mean part of it was just -- you know, he was young, and he was kind of moving up professionally, and I think they just liked being in new places, and new towns, and meeting new people.  I think that this opportunity -- he had been at the University of Chicago --

MT: [00:03:54] Prior to here.

NT: [00:03:55] Yeah, and then either I don’t know if he was recruited or applied for the [00:04:00] job, but I thought he came down for a visit and thought it looked like a great place to raise a family.

MT: [00:04:07] But he knew what he was getting into.  I mean he was well aware of that.  I think it’s interesting that we grew up -- kind of bless our parents -- there was never an ounce or a word of prejudice in our household ever.  Ever.  Just didn’t exist.  Now, by the same token, we weren’t familiar with a lot of Black people.  We didn’t have African Americans where we were in Michigan or in Chicago.  It wasn’t until we came to Charlottesville that we got to know some different people of different color.  But there was never -- that was not in our family’s DNA at all.  In fact, one of the things when I was thinking about this that I recall that was shocking to me is that I had a friend across the street who was my age, and I hung out with her quite a bit.  And the woman had a [00:05:00] -- she was divorced, and had a job, and they had a maid.  And I was over there one day playing with my friend, and the woman, the maid, asked me a question, and I said, “No, ma’am.”  And the mother yanked me aside real quick and said, “You don’t say ma’am or sir to those people.”  I was really shocked.  It was an older person, I was taught it was, “Yes, ma’am” -- you know, “Yes, sir.”  And I was pretty young at the time, I think I was about 11 or 12.  That was the first hint of something’s wrong.  And then I remember going through my head and saying, “I don’t understand what she’s talking about.”  

PL: [00:05:42] Do you remember your parents expressing any concern about moving to the South?  Obviously, all your other experiences (laughs) had been north of the Mason-Dixon line?  Do you remember that being a concern at all?

NT: [00:06:00] No, I think because it was a university town, and my parents, once they got here, became pretty friendly with people in the Democratic party -- the Elwoods and the Gastons -- and so my sense is that it wasn’t like moving to Waynesboro for them because the university was here and there were faculty here.  I don’t recall any concern that they had.

MT: [00:06:28] We went to Washington a lot.  We went to D.C. all the time -- to the theater, to any number of different things.  Even after President Kennedy was assassinated, we were there within a month -- they wanted to go to the gravesite.  That was big [moment?] -- experience for us was going from here to either New York or to Washington. 

PL: [00:06:57] What schools did you attend [00:07:00] in Charlottesville? 

MT: [00:07:00] Lane High School.

NT: [00:07:02] And Venable Elementary.

MT: [00:07:05] I went to Venable, too.  Yeah, that’s true.  

PL: [00:07:07] But, yeah, you wouldn’t have been at Lane initially because you were too young.

MT: [00:07:11] Right, yeah, but I was through for my junior year.

PL: [00:07:14] At Lane through your junior year?  What happened then?  

MT: [00:07:19] We moved.

PL: [00:07:20] Oh, you moved.  That’s right.  Where did you move to?

MT: [00:07:24] Rochester -- we went to Rochester, right? 

NT: [00:07:26] (laughs) I think so.

PL: [00:07:27] Oh.

NT: [00:07:28] We did.  We went to Rochester, and I think dad was at the University of Rochester.

MT: [00:07:33] Yeah, he was at the University of Rochester.  

PL: [00:07:36] So now I’m a little confused because you moved to Rochester -- when did you return to Charlottesville then?  Because, Nancy, I know you’ve been here for a long time.

NT: [00:07:52] Yeah, well, we each -- all of us returned at different times.  So my parents returned shortly after my father retired -- I think it was about [00:08:00] 1980 or 1981.  And then David and I came to see my parents, and we ended up moving here in ’82, I think.  And you -- when did you move back?  Was it in the ‘70s?

MT: [00:08:20] Well, I’ve been in that house for 25 years, so --

NT: [00:08:22] Yeah.  Well, you had the group home before that though.  So, yeah, we all came back at different times.

MT: [00:08:28] But then I left after the group home, so -- and then came back.

PL: [00:08:35] So Charlottesville had a pretty powerful influence on you then for you to want to come back here.  

NT: [00:08:42] Well, more interesting, I think, is for my parents to want to come back here after kind of what --

PL: [00:08:47] Yeah, no, exactly.

NT: [00:08:48] -- what happened with them.  But yeah.

MT: [00:08:50] Well, what’s interesting, real quickly though, is the fact I -- when I came back -- and I had one of the group homes over on (inaudible) Road -- [00:09:00] and we did a big party for my dad from all the educators that were still here, and there were a ton of people that showed up.  I mean he really had greater support years later than I think he recognized even at the time.  And that was a wonderful event, and people got to talk honestly about what has happened and what the temperature was race wise here in town.  When I was at Lane High School, it was amazing to me because I don’t think there was a single teacher -- or very few -- under 65 or 70.  I mean it was an old, old crowd of teachers.  I think that was one of the big problems, they were pretty much set in their ways, and I think that that was the force that -- you know, one of three areas that closed down was Lane High School.  

PL: [00:10:00] So what specific years were you at Lane?  What were the specific years?

MT: [00:10:04] I was there ’66 -- so I would have been from --

NT: [00:10:11] You would have graduated in ’68, I think.

MT: [00:10:14] ’67.  I was in Rochester that year, so it was -- well, Lane High School was five years back then, so I was there from eighth, ninth, tenth, and eleventh.  

PL: [00:10:31] And the years specifically?

NT: [00:10:33] Roughly ’60-’66.

PL: [00:10:36] Well, no --

MT: [00:10:38] That can’t be right.

PL: [00:10:38] -- because when you moved here in ’60, he said he was 10, so --

MT: [00:10:46] I think I was 15 in my junior year because I was 16 my senior year and when I started college I was 17.

PL: [00:11:00] Okay.  

MT: [00:11:01] So I was at the young age of all that.

PL: [00:11:08] So you were born in ’49?

MT: [00:11:09] Correct.

PL: [00:11:10] And you would have started high school -- if you started high school -- I’m just trying to figure out --

NT: [00:11:20] How many grades were in high school then?

MT: [00:11:22] Five.

PL: [00:11:23] Five.

NT: [00:11:23] Okay, so (laughter) --

MT: [00:11:26] I was Venable for two years, and then Lane.

PL: [00:11:33] So Venable for two years --

MT: [00:11:35] Part of one year and then a full year.

PL: [00:11:38] ’60 to ’62 then.  ’60 to ’62 -- you would have started high school in ’63 it sounds like.

MT: [00:11:49] That’s possible.

PL: [00:11:50] And then you were at Lane for three years before you left town?

MT: [00:11:53] No, I was there were four years.

NT: [00:11:55] Because it was eighth grade.

PL: [00:11:57] So you must have started in ’62 it seems [00:12:00] to me.

MT: [00:12:01] Yeah, that makes sense.  See, this is what happens when you get old.  I swear to God you can’t (laughs) --

NT: [00:12:10] You got to ask these questions before the tape rolls, Phyllis. (laugher)

PL: [00:12:14] Well, we can (laughter) -- we can get it (inaudible).

NT: [00:12:16] We could get this information to you, but not --

PL: [00:12:19] Okay, okay.  All right, well -- because I’m just trying to think about what state Lane was in when you would have been there in terms of issues of desegregation and integration.

MT: [00:12:33] Well, once again, it had recently reopened, and what’s interesting, looking back on it now -- I’m not sure I had that perspective then -- but it was the same old crowd that came back, so they were not a happy bunch, to say the least.  Once again, they’d rather shut down then change.  So it was the courts that forced them to reopen.  [00:13:00] So there was still that same kind of tension, and I think there was even more so because when my dad came down as director of instruction and then became superintendent, and he was a guy from the North, and back then that was huge sin, I’m sure, to have somebody like that come down to tell you how to run your high school.  and I know several names of several teachers that really resented that -- resented him for that.  And that’s really where a lot of the trouble began.

PL: [00:13:39] So I have a bunch of questions that I wanted to ask about what you can recall both about your own experience in high school, but also about what you were hearing from home, if anything?  You know, about what your [00:14:00] father was confronting.  But if I could, I’d kind of like to start with your own personal experiences in high school.  You’ve just suggested that you felt the tension that existed with other kids.  Is that true?  Is that what you would say? 

MT: [00:14:19] With other kids?

PL: [00:14:20] Yeah.

MT: [00:14:21] Not really.  The kids I hung out with were the same age as the kids that were out on the street where we lived, so that was pretty much -- it was pretty much the same group all the time.  No, I mean Lane was really big back then, and it was difficult to really know a whole ton of different people.  And so I pretty much hung out with the crowd that I knew which was relatively -- was in the neighborhood where we lived.  You didn’t have cars back then -- you know, I mean things were so different.  [00:15:00] I wasn’t driving or anything, so everything you established had to be within walking distance to hang out with friends.

PL: [00:15:07] Were you conscious of there being African American kids in the school?

MT: [00:15:15] Yeah.  Well, like I said, that one year when I was at Venable, during a basketball game, a guy, Frankie -- I can’t remember his last name.

PL: [00:15:25] Allen?

MT: [00:15:26] Frankie -- yeah.  And he was a good friend, but -- this is going to sound unbelievable, but we didn’t notice color.  I mean we just didn’t.  We never had that kind of word brought up, they were just -- it was just another person.  So it wasn’t until basically Lane that you started to realize kind of prejudice that really existed.  And it wasn’t until years later when -- I think I said earlier -- when I realized I had a giant paper route and there wasn’t a single African American [00:16:00] living in any of those neighborhoods.  It didn’t dawn on me back then, but years later when you looked back, you realize, “Wow, this really was segregated as can be.”  

NT: [00:16:14] And you felt it from your teachers, though, you were aware --

MT: [00:16:16] Oh, no, that -- the teachers very definitely.

PL: [00:16:18] Well, tell me -- can you give me examples of what you felt? 

MT: [00:16:22] Yeah, and one teacher really had a meltdown with me, and, quite frankly, just exploded, and was cursing about my dad and calling him a nigger-lover.  And when he did that, I got up and walked out of the classroom, and called my dad right away and said, “I don’t want to be here,” and I told him what I just -- what the teacher just had said, and he came and got me.  This was when I was a junior in high school.  So I had been at Lane for a while, and there was still that kind of prejudice still going on. 

PL: [00:16:55] So all the teachers knew you were the superintendent’s son?

MT: [00:16:58] Yeah.  (laughter)

PL: [00:17:00] Do you remember the teacher’s name?  Would you share it?

MT: [00:17:05] You know, I thought about it this afternoon.  I can’t think of it off hand.

NT: [00:17:13] We could get you a yearbook.  (laughs)

MT: [00:17:14] I do know there was another --

PL: [00:17:16] I’ve seen the yearbooks.

MT: [00:17:17] -- there was a real problem with [Sharon Hoose?], and I one time --

PL: [00:17:22] And who is Sharon Hoose?

NT: [00:17:29] She was on the faculty --

MT: [00:17:30] No, it was a he.

NT: [00:17:31] Oh, he.

MT: [00:17:31] Yeah.  I think he had something to do -- this is so weird -- he had something to do with the band, and I didn’t play an instrument, so I’m kind of thinking, “Why”--now back then, teachers did different -- taught different classes even though they were sponsors of other things, so I don’t know -- I don’t remember what the deal was, but that was a problem with him.

NT: [00:17:57] And I remember his name being brought up by dad a lot.

MT: [00:18:00] Yeah, yeah.

PL: [00:18:01] Do you know how to spell it?

NT: [00:18:03] We have a yearbook, we could probably look.

PL: [00:18:04] Yeah, right, and I could look it up, too, but I just -- okay.  So there was this one teacher that exploded at you, was there anything you had done to cause that explosion?

MT: [00:18:16] I don’t recall it.  No, I mean I was not a combative kid, by any means.  I was relatively quiet, just kind of took my place.  I can’t recall what set him off.  He obviously was mad about -- I mean he had something to built up so that whatever I did, as small as it might have been, it just set him off big time.  But I cannot remember.  But I do remember it being just about as vicious and nasty -- I remember the guy sweating like crazy, too.  I mean he was just having a meltdown in front of me, in front of the class for whatever reason.

PL: [00:18:53] Do you remember teachers saying negative things [00:19:00] about African Americans in the classroom?

MT: [00:19:07] I wish I could take you back to a history class (laughter) because when I look back on it, I think I was like 25 before I realized the South lost the Civil War.  (laughter) I wasn’t really clear on that (inaudible) history that we were taught.

NT: [00:19:24] Absolutely true.

MT: [00:19:27] All of the trips that we took -- the day trips and so forth -- were all to the monuments -- the Southern monuments -- 

NT: [00:19:34] And the Confederate [graves?].

MT: [00:19:35] -- and Confederate monuments.  We did so many of those.  Like I said, I’d love to be able to go back because it really was not -- I think it was -- the Civil War was really taught as a toss-up more than anything.

NT: [00:19:55] And the War between the States.

MT: [00:19:57] Yeah, yeah.  

NT: [00:19:58] Wasn’t there [00:20:00] somebody still alive in Charlottesville?  And they had some anniversary of the Civil War, and there was still somebody who had been alive or fought in the Civil War and they commemorated him with downtown marches.  (laughs)

PL: [00:20:16] Did you have any African American students in your classes?

MT: [00:20:22] When I was in school?  Frankie Allen, and that was Venable.  In high school, no.  I don’t remember a single one.

PL: [00:20:32] So in 1963, there were some African American prominent athletes in the school.  One of them was George King, and, you know, Lane High School sort of won the state championship in football, and there were several Black kids on the team by that time.  

MT: [00:21:00] Speaking of which, Tommy Theodose was the coach, and he was also my gym teacher.  And, actually, there were some African American kids in my gym kids.  Theodose, you just -- you knew he didn’t have an ounce of prejudice in him.  He was a remarkable man.  I mean it’s too bad that the rest of the faculty couldn’t have led by his example because I do remember thinking you always felt safe in that class.  And I was lousy in gym, so that was not one of my favorite things in the world, but it was a time where there was all interaction between every kind of kid you would think of -- even kids that were lousy at gym.  He just had a great touch in encouraging everyone, and, obviously, he was a fantastic coach, needless to say.

PL: [00:21:53] We interviewed him for the project

MT: [00:21:55] Oh, did you?

PL: [00:21:56] Yeah, we did early on along [00:22:00] with some of the other people who’ve stayed in touch with him over the years.  He was already declining by the time we got to him, but --

NT: [00:22:10] Is his tape up on the website?

PL: [00:22:12] Yeah, it is.

NT: [00:22:12] Oh, you might be interested in seeing that.

MT: [00:22:14] Yeah, I’d love to see that.   

PL: [00:22:16] It’s a common refrain that he was -- he just treated everyone with a sense of equality.

MT: [00:22:24] That’s exactly correct. 

PL: [00:22:25] And Black athletes have told us that, too.

MT: [00:22:27] Yeah.  No, he was a real example.  There were a couple -- I was thinking of Beverly Hathaway was a science teacher, and she was -- she led by -- I mean she was extraordinary.  I think there were one or two African American kids -- they weren’t friends of mine -- in my science class, but she treated everyone with the ultimate respect.  And we had some that didn’t.  I mean there was -- oh, God, I’m trying to think of her name.  There was one teacher, [00:23:00] she was really, really old, and I can always remember there was one kid -- African American kid -- in the class, and every time he raised his hand, she refused to acknowledge him.  Just refused all the time.  Poor kid tried like hell, but she would never ever ever acknowledge him.  I wish I could remember her name. 

PL: [00:23:23] Well, and Nancy, what do you remember from your early years at Venable in terms of issues sort of related to the desegregation process?

NT: [00:23:36] Not much in the beginning.  We came in mid-year of my first grade -- school had already started.  And my first-grade teacher, Miriam Trevillian, was one of the nicest teachers, she was great to everybody, and I do recall -- [00:24:00] I was trying to look up my Venable class picture.  They stand everybody in front of the steps at Venable, and there’d be 98 percent of them white kids, (laughs) and then I think there were a couple of Black kids.  But she treated everybody -- you know, it was such a great introduction to Venable because she was such a great teacher.  Then I remember in fourth grade, we had a wonderful teacher, Miss Lincoln, who was actually a descendant (laughs) of Abraham Lincoln, so she was really beloved and revered.  And there was very little that I recall any kind of tension in the school or in the cafeteria between white and Black kids or the teachers.  And those teachers in elementary school tended to be younger, also, and, you know, just like a lot of [00:25:00] elementary school teachers, just want the best thing for all the kids.  So I had a pretty good experience.  My dad’s office was right next to Venable, and I was always so aware of that.  It’s a little administrative building between the west side of Venable and down where the field used to be, and my biggest memory was that my dad was so close by (laughs) all through being in school which was kind of a drag, but (laughs) --

PL: [00:25:32] I was going to say, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

NT: [00:25:35] Not that I did anything wrong, but it wasn’t -- you know, there were just too many times I ran into him.  (laughter) But those were the early years.  By the end, it became pretty clear what was going on.  And it was a little scary, too, how we were sometimes hiding out in the house and feeling like we [00:26:00] -- do you remember that, Mark? 

PL: [00:26:02] Well, tell us about that.

MT: [00:26:04] This was amazing.  (laughter) Dad was going to be taken -- he had the support of the VEA and the NEA which is the National Education Association and the Virginia Education Association -- and they were supporting him.  I forget who was going to take him -- file a lawsuit against him.  Anyway, he knew it was coming.

PL: [00:26:27] There was a lawsuit against him personally?

MT: [00:26:29] Yeah.  And I have no other explanation on where that ended up going, but I do remember this (laughs) -- he was supposed to get served papers, and every year, we always did one trip to my grandparents who lived in Iron Mountain, Michigan.  And my dad would drive -- in fact, he would drive from here to Chicago in one day -- or here to Milwaukee in one day -- and then we’d go up to Iron Mountain.  And he knew this subpoena was coming, [00:27:00] and he was afraid it was going to get served the next morning -- do you remember this?

NT: [00:27:05] Yeah, absolutely. 

MT: [00:27:05] So we all took baths at three o’clock in the morning, (laughs) mom packed a lunch and everything, so we could get out of the town in the dark before the subpoena could be served. 

NT: [00:27:16] And I remember it as a longer period of time than that -- that we weren’t like allowed to go outside of the house --

MT: [00:27:21] No, we weren’t.

NT: [00:27:21] -- we had to just hide out.  Dad, I think, was probably still going to work, but for at least a couple of days, we were all kind of hiding out.  And then, like Mark said, we got in the car and just drove up to Iron Mountain.  And I don’t know if that affidavit was ever served or not, but --

MT: [00:27:41] I don’t remember if it was either.

NT: [00:27:43] Yeah, and I do have some documents

[Extraneous material redacted.]

PL: [00:28:15] Where are those papers now?  Do you have them?

NT: [00:28:17] Yeah, they’re up in my study.  When Mark said that about the VEA, I started to see a lot of the correspondence between the VEA and the people that supported my father.  And there were a number of school board members, also, who did including Lucille Michie, right?

MT: [00:28:38] I was going to say you can’t talk about dad without Lucille Michie (inaudible).

PL: [00:28:41] Why?  What was her role?

MT: [00:28:44] She was like a patriarch of teachers and stuff.  She was as old school as you could get, and she supported dad.  If there was a person that you blindly would have thought [00:29:00] would have been filled with nothing but hatred and prejudice, it would have been her just because of where she came from.  But she was not that person at all, she was really quite remarkable.  And she stood up for him many, many times, and she carried enough clout that that made a difference.  

NT: [00:29:18] She was on the school board.  She wasn’t president, but right, Mark?  

MT: [00:29:24] I don’t remember -- I don’t think it was the school board. 

NT: [00:29:29] Maybe it was just the teacher’s association.  I can look that up.

MT: [00:29:30] I think she was a teacher, I think she was an educator, but she was really, really a forceful --

NT: [00:29:41] -- advocate for dad. 

MT: [00:29:42] Yeah, she really was really quite remarkable.

PL: [00:29:45] So before I forget, I’ll just say I know that the school board records are at Special Collections [UVA}, and so I can understand why Special Collections would be a good place for these materials.  [00:30:00] But I could also tell you that the Historical Society has an archive that we are very proud of, and if you ever had interest in thinking about giving the papers there, I’m sure we would love to have them.

NT: [00:30:12] Yeah, I will definitely go through them and bring them over if you think that there’s a very good chance of that lasting --

PL: [00:30:21] Absolutely.  I mean we have a superb librarian, she’s busy digitizing the collection.

NT: [00:30:26] Oh, yeah, great.

PL: [00:30:27] And it’s local history, so it could very well serve a lot of people there who are interested in this history.

MT: [00:30:35] That would be great, yeah.

NT: [00:30:36] Yeah, Mark, maybe you and I can go through some of them and pull out any of the personal stuff.  But, Phyllis, we’d be -- I mean it sounds like a perfect repository for it.

PL: [00:30:45] We’d be honored to have them.  It would really be great to do that.  So how was your family life affected by your dad’s position aside from hiding out (laughter) [00:31:00] because of a subpoena that might be served?

NT: [00:31:08] We were a pretty close unit because we were -- you know, it became clear that at some point -- it felt to me like it was kind of dad against the world.  And I recently came across this note I wrote to him of like -- yeah, I must have been 10 -- of total support, and you know, just, “The best dad in the world,” and, “Don’t let anything get you down.”  So, yeah, I think we became aware of the stress that he was under, and I mean I -- we were and are such a close family.  We’ve stayed like that through the decades, but, you know, it was a concerning time.  It was clear he was under a lot of pressure, it was clear that [00:32:00] there was a world of this racial strife, particularly ’65-’66, that was swirling around us that was very uncomfortable.  And I think I was probably oblivious to anything that was going on with teachers in those later years partly because I was such a goofy kid, but also because I just wasn’t really looking for it.  But how would you say it --

MT: [00:32:30] I think the ultimate of dad’s impact was his legacy which is his kids.  After my senior year in high school, I worked at a camp in Rochester for handicap kids, and there were Black kids, white kids, and severely handicapped kids.  And for some reason or other, between my grandmother and my family, I never saw handicap -- I didn’t see anything, I just saw kids.  [00:33:00] That was it.  So I worked there for two summers having the time of my life.  But I was able to do that, I think, because of the way we were brought up.  Mom or dad never had an unkind word for anyone who was handicap, who was different, who was -- that just didn’t exist.  And it’s really interesting because we’re the product of what it’s like when that doesn’t exist.  You’re open to anything and everything.  I’ve found my niche in working with handicap kids, and ended up doing the same sort of thing in group homes years later because I had no prejudice or anything against -- feelings against anybody.  So that, to me, I can remember thinking -- really thinking that those years at the Rotary Sunshine Camp that I’m here because of where I came from.  There was a time, [00:34:00] even when I was younger, my grandmother in Iron Mountain, Michigan -- we used to go up there for Christmas -- and she used to put together packages for unfortunate families.  And I finally got old enough to drive around with her -- my grandfather drove, no women drove back then (laughter) which is hard to believe, but -- and we got to deliver these packages to families.  And all that stuff makes an impression on you.  You know, you realize you give, you don’t take.  This is the way that you’re supposed to live.  We were lucky enough to have been brought up like that.  I think one of the other things, too, my dad would get mad at certain things, but it was interesting how he handled this whole situation in Charlottesville because, as Nancy said, when he retired, he came back.  I mean he still knew that he had a ton of friends here and a ton of supporters.  And, quite frankly, we all thought it was kind of amazing the way they treated him.  We were really in shock that he’d want to come back here [00:35:00] for his retirement, but that’s exactly what he did.

PL: [00:35:03] Well, what were some of those positions that he took that were so controversial?  I mean I know he went from being assistant superintendent for instruction to superintendent of schools between ’63 and ’66.  What were some of those specific policies that he implemented that caused so much stress?  

MT: [00:35:32] I think it was the fact that he was -- he, as we alluded to earlier, some of those teachers had been there for eternity, they were really old.  And I think he was changing some of that.  I think he was changing some of the curriculum.  I know that was a major part of what he was doing, too.  And if you start messing around with the history of Virginia’s curriculum, you’re going to get in trouble.  [00:36:00] He was doing what he was brought in to do which was -- no matter who did it, I think, at that time, across the country it was going to get [battered?], and it was going to be the second person that was really going to be able to make the difference.  But the first person had to get in there and take all the blows, and that’s kind of what happened with him.

NT: [00:36:24] He did some really specific things, too, he just moved -- yeah, like Mark said, he thought he had sort of been brought in or decided to do something.  And he named -- I can’t remember if it was an African American as principal or vice principal at -- is Burley one of the city schools? 

MT: [00:36:44] Yeah, Burnley-Moran.

NT: [00:36:45] No, not Burnley-Moran, Burley.

PL: [00:36:47] Burley High School was the all Black high school --

NT: [00:36:50] Yeah.

MT: [00:36:50] Oh, that’s right. 

PL: [00:36:51] -- which closed in ’67 causing, you know, a much fuller desegregation than had happened up until then, [00:37:00] but he was gone by then.

MT: [00:37:01] Can I interrupt for a quick second?  Because that’s one the things I meant to mention.  Do you remember before it was closed, we went to a Christmas show there, and we were the only white people in the entire crew.  But that’s the kind of stand he took.  They did a beautiful chorus and so forth.  Do you remember that?

NT: [00:37:22] I do.

MT: [00:37:23] I can remember thinking we were the only white people there.  But he also, on the tail of that, there was the one time -- they did Christmas parties and they invited all the principals.  And it was only -- what was his name?  There was only the African American principal and his wife that showed up for mom and dad’s Christmas party.

PL: [00:37:48] Would this be Booker Reaves?

MT: [00:37:49] Booker Reaves, yep.  And so mom and dad said, “Screw it.  Great, we’re going to have a party.”  And the four of them had a party, and the three of us -- the house was divided in five levels [00:38:00] and all the good food was down in the kitchen (laughter) which is right off our bedrooms.   Very few people showed up so we were snitching as much food as we possibly could.  But, yeah, nobody -- everyone declined.

NT: [00:38:13] But there were administrative changes that he was putting in place that really got the hackles of the teachers.  And some of it may have been curriculum --

MT: [00:38:23] It was, yeah.

NT: [00:38:25] -- others was either putting a vice principal -- an African American vice principal in one the schools, and people just said, “You’re just moving way too quickly.”

MT: [00:38:37] Well, he was changing the books.  That was part of the curriculum that he was doing, the books.  I wish I had those books from way back then.  I think we’d all be shocked to read what was considered history.  You would not even imagine that you could get away with that and consider that an educational book.

PL: [00:38:55] So on that topic, I’m going to read you a quote from this interview [00:39:00] that George Gilliam did with George Tramontin because I think it’s relevant to what you’re talking about.  So he [George Tramontin] said, “It was only four or five years after schools closed that we were putting Black teachers in charge of white children with no preparation, with no kind of in-service kinds of work, with no kind of time to get people prepared on how to do this.  We threw them all in on their own resources.”  And then he said, “And I think that’s one of the tragedies of this whole thing is that if this massive resistance had not started, if they had accepted the fact that it” -- meaning integration – “was going to happen and created a plan, the whole history of integration could have been different.”  So he’s here talking about shifting teachers -- some of the Black teachers -- from other schools in the city, [00:40:00] you know, into teaching white children.  So I think that sort of confirms --

NT: [00:40:06] Absolutely.

PL: [00:40:06] -- some of what you were talking about.  And then he also said at one point in the interview -- I’m trying to see, I thought I had written it down.  Well, this is what he says about Booker Reaves, he said, “I had” -- and it’s about the subject of the quality of Black schools and white schools, and he said, “I had great respect for what Booker Reaves was doing.  I went to their programs (laughter) the same as I did to the white kid’s programs, and I saw absolutely no difference in them.  Their musical programs (laughter), I frankly thought they were superior to what the white schools were.  And I think that this idea that the Black schools were inferior to the white schools was a tragedy because I think they were meeting their kids needs sometimes better than the white schools were.”

NT: [00:40:59] Wow.  [00:41:00] That’s the program, yeah.  (laughs)

PL: [00:41:03] So I think that is --

NT: [00:41:05] That’s really interesting.  

PL: [00:41:06] You’re sort of alluding to this from your perspective --

NT: [00:41:09] Yeah, absolutely.

PL: [00:41:09] -- in terms of what you saw, but in that interview -- I think about 20 years ago -- he was saying some of those same things

NT: [00:41:17] Absolutely.  And with the perspective that is so interesting that without massive resistance, that they could have taken the time to plan the integration instead of a desegregation.  And it really didn’t feel too much like an integration when we were there.

PL: [00:41:40] Well, it wasn’t because you had these rules that Black kids needed to apply, you know, after schools reopened here to be able to transfer.  And, of course, then there was a lot of resistance to those transfers.  [00:42:00] So whatever desegregation took place was really, you know, very minimal until the Black schools closed and forced integration, and then those Black communities were -- and all the pride that those schools had like your dad was talking about -- that all was taken away.  So, of course, there’s a lot of that that lingers, you know, well beyond.  And I also wanted to say that in this interview, your dad talked about the schools -- like the private academies that you mentioned before we started the interview, Mark -- and one of the things he said -- he said about these tuition grant schools is -- people could apply to the state for tuition grants to go [00:43:00] to these private academies, and he said -- this is George Tramontin [speaking]: “I never got the feeling that the resistance was so much from kids as it was from their parents.  That really upset me that time that they were pulling these kids out instead of staying and helping us work this out.”  And then he said, “But in hindsight, it really was a safety valve because it took off some, but not all, of the people that felt very strongly and could have created more tension and interest.”  He said, “It siphoned off some of those who were antagonistic.”  So I guess he didn’t see this as a good thing, but that it --

NT: [00:43:51] Right, but it managed to let them -- right, gave them some time.

PL: [00:43:51] -- sort of made that transition a little bit easier because the people who were most hostile to it were not part of the system.  [00:44:00] So he resented it on the one hand, but he recognized that perhaps it had a little bit of effect in terms of not having the degree of hostility.  But I think you earlier, Mark, suggested that lot of those kids still were in the schools because you felt those tensions.

MT: [00:44:26] You mean tensions among the kids?

PL: [00:44:27] Yeah.

MT: [00:44:28] Well, I mean it just depended.  I mean if they came from a real prejudicial homes, yeah, I mean you are your family.  But by the same token, I think even in the lower -- when we were at Venable and so forth, kids there are just kids.  

PL: [00:44:51] That’s right.

MT: [00:44:51] I’m telling you, we didn’t even know the difference of races until -- none of those kids did.  There’s an incredible song from [00:45:00] South Pacific about how you have to be taught -- and you really have to learn that stuff, I mean it doesn’t come natural to you.  You really are taught --

NT: [00:45:08] Racism.

MT: [00:45:09] -- that sort of thing, yeah.

PL: [00:45:12] What do you remember about Black leaders in the community like Eugene Williams, for example, and your dad’s relationship with them?  Do you remember whether he had a relationship?

MT: [00:45:22] Oh, yeah.

NT: [00:45:22] Oh, yeah.  When we came back, Booker Reaves, Eugene Williams, Lorraine Williams -- I mean dad and mom would see them at Democratic events, and these guys always made a point to come up and tell me -- you know, after dad had died and before -- just how great it was that they knew my father and the fight that they fought together.  I think there was a sense of being in a civil rights movement together.  And they never forgot him, and he thought the world of -- [00:46:00] you know, the two names that you mentioned.

PL: [00:46:05] Do you remember any engagement with your dad and the NAACP?

NT: [00:46:13] No, but I think there’s some correspondences from NAACP in the letters that I have.  But I don’t, do you?

MT: [00:46:20] No, but we wouldn’t, I mean to be honest with you.  It was a different time.  We sort of knew -- dad was really good about -- in fact, in hindsight, it’s remarkable how much he kept all that away from us.  I mean he was really protecting us in many ways from that kind of turmoil because I think we learned of it and we knew about it back then, and we’ve learned a great deal of it since then, but he really wanted us to remain just a bunch of kids and really kept us [00:47:00] from having to deal with so much of -- in hindsight what he was going through just had to be hell.  

PL: [00:47:09] And when he left, was it because he had a better opportunity or was he --

NT: [00:47:18] He had his contract bought out.  

MT: [00:47:20] He was run out of town.

NT: [00:47:21] Yeah, he was basically run out of town.

PL: [00:47:22] He was run out of town?

MT: [00:47:23] Run out of town.  That’s exactly what happened.

PL: [00:47:27] And you said he had his contract bought out?

NT: [00:47:29] I think so.  There’s a lot of correspondence with the terms of his contract and --

MT: [00:47:36] That’s the only way he was going to go.

NT: [00:47:38] Yeah.

PL: [00:47:39] He would have stayed on and continued?

NT: [00:47:41] Mm-hmm.

PL: [00:47:41] I mean it’s -- ’67 is such a critical year, I think, in Charlottesville when Burley School closes.  And that really affects the racial population and percentages both at Lane [00:48:00] and at Albemarle High School.  And that’s when you begin to have much more of a critical mass of Black kids coming in to the schools.

MT: [00:48:13] But I think he also, at that point, particularly with the stories I was telling you, he decided to get out of here because of -- he knew he didn’t want his kids to have go through -- it was going to get rough.  It was going to get rougher than it was.  And so I think when he finally could negotiate to have them buy out his contract, he was like, “Okay, I’ve done what I can do.”  And he did.  He had integrated all these places.  I mean, you know, they had to live with what’s he had done.  That was a great thing about all the different chances that he took, but I think he realized this was not a healthy environment.  He had three young kids, and it was --

NT: [00:48:52] And I think he had lost some board support by moving faster than, I think, the school board wanted to, [00:49:00] so I think he also saw the handwriting on the wall.  

PL: [00:49:06] Were you and your family members of a church in town when he was here?

NT: [00:49:12] Holy Comforter, a Catholic church.  

PL: [00:49:15] And was the church a source of support? 

NT: [00:49:21] No.

MT: [00:49:22] No.

NT: [00:49:22] Not really.  As a matter of fact, I don’t think we even had any friends from that church.

MT: [00:49:30] (laughs) I’m just all into the stories, but there was the one -- there was the one priest that took (inaudible) to DC… whatever that time --

NT: [00:49:41] Rodriguez?

MT: [00:49:42] -- and then he got arrested for child abuse.  (laughter)

NT: [00:49:45] That actually was when some of that was going on.  But, no, the progressives weren’t part of the Catholic community.  

MT: [00:49:53] No, they really weren’t.

NT: [00:49:54] And so most of the university faculty that I mentioned were not -- [00:50:00] I don’t think, like I said, we had a single friend from our church.  And I think it was pretty conservative at the time.

PL: [00:50:11] Do you remember your dad having any relationship with some of the Black ministers in town?  Reverend Mitchell or --

NT: [00:50:21] I don’t have any memory of that.  

MT: [00:50:23] I don’t either.

PL: [00:50:24] Because some of them -- I know at Lane High School, maybe Lorenzo will remember the year because I don’t, but there were some student walkouts at Lane of Black students who -- and they walked up to Trinity Episcopal, I think, where Reverend Mitchell was who sort of supported a lot of those students.

MT: [00:50:51] Do you remember what year that was?

PL: [00:50:53] I thought it was ’66, but I could be mistaken.  Do you think it was later?

LORENZO DICKERSON: [00:50:58] It could have been [as late as ’68?], but I’m not sure.

MT: [00:51:00] I don’t remember that at all.  

PL: [00:51:02] And you probably would’ve.

MT: [00:51:02] I would’ve remembered that.

PL: [00:51:03] You probably would’ve.  It probably was after you left then.

MT: [00:51:06] I think it was after we had left.

PL: [00:51:09] Yeah, right.  

MT: [00:51:13] You know, it’s interesting, I think at that time, you had begun to see it as the schools were more and more integrated, the Black students really decided to -- they understood it was time to take a stand, it was time to -- you know, they realized what’s going on here is integrated, but it ain’t fair.  I can even remember some of the groups finally getting together and really realizing that, “Yeah, we’re together, but we’re not equal.  We’re not getting a fair shake here.”  And they weren’t.  I mean that’s the bottom line.  And whatever they were given, once again, it was -- in things like history classes, I can only imagine.  I can remember in history class being [00:52:00] appalled as a white guy, I can only imagine what it was for an African American to have to read the crap that was in these history books.  I know there was, at one point, I think it was actually my senior year in Rochester where there was the same sort of books that finally they -- the African American community in the high school said, “You gotta change these books.  This is not history, this is what you want to be history.”  And I can see where that was coalescing here even my last year at Lane that, you know, you just knew change was going to happen.  And, of course, it did.

PL: [00:52:42] Who were some of the people -- some of the kids -- with whom you were friendly in high school?  Names -- I mean do you remember names?

MT: [00:52:53] Yeah.  Chris Uhl -- Dr. Uhl -- in fact, when [00:53:00] dad moved my senior year, they offered to have me live with them so I could finish out my senior year at Lane.  And Chris Uhl was a really good friend.  Charlie McGinn -- Joanne McGinn was a classmate of mine, and Charlie was a good friend of ours.  We met them up in New York -- remember we went on vacation that time with them?

NT: [00:53:24] Mm-hmm.  Were you friends with Bill Barkley?

MT: [00:53:28] Yeah, who’s now Judge Barkley or -- yeah, Bill and I were really good friends.

NT: [00:53:38] Marilyn Vogt?

MT: [00:53:40] Oh, Marilyn Vogt, yeah.

PL: [00:53:43] Okay.  None of those names specifically ring a bell with me because there were some white kids who were activists at the time.  I think they were a little bit younger than you, perhaps, and so, you know, would’ve constituted [00:54:00] the period after you left when more of that activity started.

MT: [00:54:04] I think you’re probably right.  I mean by the time we left, even my junior year, it was just beginning to change.  That really was the very, very beginning of that sort of change.  What’s interesting is that having moved to Rochester -- while I was having just the most incredible time at the Rotary Sunshine Camp for Handicap Kids -- I couldn’t have been happier there, like I said -- and that you went for the summer, you lived there.  Days, nights, you lived with the kids and all that sort of thing.  Meanwhile the riots in Rochester, they were burning the city down.  I mean there was such turmoil going on in the inner-city at that time that I was totally unaware of, once again, because where we were, you lived for the entire summer, and you just didn’t have access to anything that was happening downtown.  [00:55:00] Plus, it was totally integrated so you didn’t have that sense of whatever kind of prejudice or concern there was going on in the city, that didn’t exist where we were.  It was way too idyllic where I was.  

PL: [00:55:18] Lorenzo, would you like to ask some questions?  

LD: [00:55:22] Yeah, I have kind of just one comment and one question, really.  I think it’s just really interesting that you all moved here from Chicago of all places.  (laughter) It has to be super different.  It’s just interesting because, of course, Chicago -- let’s say eight years before -- is one of the places where African Americans moved to during the Great Migration from a place like Charlottesville, and here you are in the early ‘60s (laughter) moving to --

MT: [00:55:52] Doing the opposite.

LD: [00:55:53] Right.  (laughter)

NT: [00:55:55] Absolutely.  Good point.  (laughter)

LD: [00:55:58] I’m curious because when you [00:56:00] moved here, that was at the height of racial tension in America at that time.  And we’ve talked to some folks of, you know, what they remember.  I’m curious as to what you remember in ’63 of, say, the March on Washington, or JFK’s assassination -- what memory do you have of that?  We’ve talked to some folks that remember hearing about JFK while they were in class.

NT: [00:56:25] Oh, yeah.  My mom came to Venable -- I think we were released early, and we were all like, “Oh, it’s so great.  We’re out early.”  And my mom and Pearl Ritz drove up, and they were just crying, and it was the first time that hearing, you know, what happened, it just hit home so hard.  And I think I remember one of the teachers saying that this had happened, but it was just -- I couldn’t even process it.  But you [00:57:00] instantly learned through the people that you love the most what this meant and how awful it was.  And that whole next week we were all just glued to the television just watching the -- you know, the service, the body being flown back, and -- vivid, vivid memories of that for me, and I was pretty young at that time.  

PL: [00:57:22] You would have been nine at the time.

NT: [00:57:25] Yeah, vivid memories.  

MT: [00:57:30] We got called to the auditorium, and it was really interesting because I was at Lane High School, and we were brought to the auditorium, and we were told that President Kennedy had been assassinated, and then we were sent home.  Just ended up walking home.  Now, one of the things that I think that’s important for why it affected us so much is we were politically way ahead of ourselves as kids.  When Nixon was [00:58:00] running against JFK, we put together -- we had a wagon, and we put together a dummy of Nixon (laughter) with a bunch of rotten apples, and we dragged it around the neighborhood (laughter) with Kennedy stickers on the side of the wagon.

NT: [00:58:13] We were so political.  (laughter)

MT: [00:58:14] We were really young, (laughs) and we did this on our own.  No help from mom or dad or anything.  (laughter) On these trips to Washington when President Kennedy was president, you know, that’s kind of how we knew Washington and so forth.  And so I think his assassination really affected us a lot more --

NT: [00:58:35] More personal. 

MT: [00:58:35] -- than it would anyone else.  The other thing I would say about it -- talk about growing up and coming of age -- on the Sunday, we had trays and we were eating in front of the television up in the living room.  And I can remember sitting there eating lunch and so forth, and Lee Harvey Oswald was assassinated right in front of us -- [00:59:00] we’re kids.  You know, talk about growing immediately, having your world changed.  I mean that was extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary.  And then, like I said, that was in December, and we have pictures of it when we went to visit the grave.  Back then it was the -- it was just a little torch thing stuck in the ground, the eternal flame that was lit.  So that’s my memory of --

NT: [00:59:38] And our parents were pretty political.  You know, they used to have parties on election night (laughs) and they’d bring crying towels.  They’d say to friends, “It may not look good, bring your crying towel.”  You know, they were always following politics, and voting, and they taught us to vote, they taught us how to follow politics pretty closely.  So, yeah, that stuff -- [01:00:00] the Kennedy thing felt very personal, you know, I’m sure to a lot of people.  It certainly did to us as kids.  And to see, again, your parents so devastated by it was so clear that this loss was -- you know, something that was very difficult to comprehend and much less get over.

MT: [01:00:23] This doesn’t have anything to do with my dad, but just for me personally -- you talk about a rough life politically -- I watched the JFK thing, then I was a huge supporter of Martin Luther King.  When I’m in college, a bunch of kids were playing cards, we get word Martin Luther King’s been assassinated.  Then, a couple of years later, I’m so excited about Robert Kennedy I can’t even see straight.  And I’ve got a good friend, we’re in Rochester, New York, we stayed up all night watching the California election, and finally went to bed.  [01:01:00] And then Nancy got a phone call -- he had gotten home, he had to drive home, and on the way home he heard that Robert Kennedy had been shot, and he called Nancy -- had a phone in her room and answered the phone.  And, of course, my brother and I were in the other room, came and got us, and it was just -- you got to the point where it’s like, “Really?”  When is this going to stop?  As a liberal or as a Democrat, you just could not believe this was continuing to happen.  Meanwhile, George Wallace gets shot, he’s okay.  All these other clowns get away with it, but all of our guys, it just devastates.  So I know that has nothing to do with -- going the step further than the JFK thing, but that really was the beginning of just, for me, politically, a devastating time that really didn’t get changed until Barack Obama came, and then I can’t believe I actually got to go through the whole thing and he was okay.  And I finally had my hero [01:02:00] after 40, 50 years.  So, anyway -- but that JFK thing -- yeah, that was a devastating time, to say the least.

PL: [01:02:14] So you have another brother?  Cort?

MT: [01:02:16] Yeah.

PL: [01:02:17] And what is his name? 

MT: [01:02:18] C-O-R-T.

PL: [01:02:19] That’s how it’s spelled?  Cort? 

MT: [01:02:20] Yep. 

PL: [01:02:21] And is he older or younger?

MT: [01:02:23] Younger.

NT: [01:02:24] Between us.

PL: [01:02:24] Oh, okay.  Yeah, so anything else?

LD: [01:02:30] That’s all I have.

PL: [01:02:31] What else would -- that I have not asked or we 

haven’t talked about -- would you like to add about your dad’s role, your own personal experiences in those years in Charlottesville?

NT: [01:02:39] For me, coming back with my husband, David [Toscano], who ran for political office -- but a lot of times, early on, people would laugh (laughs) and say, “Oh, it’s [01:03:00] George Tramontin’s revenge,” (laughs) because David was a Democrat running.  And we got to see so many of the people like Eugene and Lorraine Williams, and Booker Reaves, that I probably would not have had a chance to see so much.  But the history of being in this town when it was one town -- coming back, watching massive changes even from the time in the ‘80s, you know, that we came back to now has been -- you know, it’s a wonderful story of a city that really has changed in a lot of ways, and there’s a lot of reckoning to do, like Mark said at the beginning, but there is thread line that goes through of it mostly just getting better.  And it’s sad that a lot of the people are not around anymore, and it’s so nice that you’re telling the stories of some them that were around, and then the descendants of others [01:04:00] because it was a crazy time then just like it has been for the past five years in this city.  

PL: [01:04:09] Yeah.  Well, and I was going to say until the Unite the Right rally --

NT: [01:04:13] 2017 changed everything, it just -- 

PL: [01:04:15] And in what way do you think it changed everything?

NT: [01:04:19] Oh, I just think that this kind bucolic town that had declared itself the center of the resistance to Trump, you know, at so many levels it showed that although progressive it still had these huge monuments up that, you know, weren’t still taken down.  When this group from the outside came in, I think it has so hurt businesses, and downtown still hasn’t recovered, and I know that from a lot of the restaurant business people I know down there.  After Vinegar Hill had opened, and the [01:05:00] Regal Theater, there was so many county folks coming downtown, and university folks that we had never seen, you know, in the restaurants outside.  And I think after 2017, a lot of that’s gone back -- you know, people just don’t like coming downtown anymore.  And then that’s been exacerbated by some of the gun violence that’s happening.  I think the city’s really struggling now, and it -- 2017 was one marker for it, it didn’t all derive from that, but I think it’s struggling in a way -- it needs some more care and solutions, I think, than we’ve seen.

PL: [01:05:51] Well, before we let you go, just for the purpose of gender fairness, I want you to just tell us a little [01:06:00] bit about your mom --

NT: [01:06:02] Oh.  (laughs)

PL: [01:06:02] -- because it seems to me like she’s been --

NT: [01:06:04] The moms are always the ones --

PL: [01:06:06] She’s missing from this story so far, and she, obviously, was there also through these years in support of your dad and the two of you.  Did she work or was she a stay at home mom?

NT: [01:06:21] She was stay at home in Charlottesville.  She worked later, but, yeah, she was housewife and mom, right?

MT: [01:06:30] Yeah.  It’s amazing when you look back on it, she didn’t have a prejudicial bone in her body.  It’s hard for me to believe -- looking at families even today and so forth -- that there was never a harsh word, there was never an anti anybody, [01:07:00] no matter what their ethnic history was or anything in our household.  Mom was a kind, kind person -- incredibly kind.  She accepted everyone and anyone.  She supported my dad like crazy.

NT: [01:07:14] And it wasn’t just that she was kind, she was really so righteous about equality.  Like she really was angry about things that weren’t equal because there are a lot of kind people, but they don’t necessarily act the way that is kind to everybody.  But she was a real -- in her kind of quiet way -- a real defender of equality, and taught us that, and -- you know, until the day she died, really.  And she stayed very political, also.  

MT: [01:07:50] Well, and she also -- while dad was going through all of this -- she’s the one that, you know, he was gone -- not a lot, but he obviously had a lot to deal with -- [01:08:00] she’s the one that raised the three of us.  I mean our moral stance comes from both of them, but it’s every bit as equal from her as it was from my dad.  We were very lucky -- very, very lucky to have been brought up the way that we were.  We were -- from our grandparents down -- incredibly lucky.  That’s the other thing, too, is that even our grandparents, you never ever heard -- I would love to know -- I’m just really amazed, but we never heard an unkind word of racial tension or anything like that from them.  It just did not exist.  So like I say, when people talk about the fact that all that’s taught, it is all taught.  It doesn’t come to anyone naturally at all.  It’s unfortunate.

PL: [01:08:54] And your dad, actually, said as much to George Gilliam in the interview because he says at one point --

NT: [01:09:00] The kids.

PL: [01:09:01] -- it was the parents who were the problem, not the kids.  (laughs) 

NT: [01:09:05] Right.

PL: [01:09:06] And we’ve heard that from many other people who we’ve interviewed.  We were just kids, we were just sort of going about our business.  Whatever negative things we learned, (laughs) we learned from our parents.  I mean you are fortunate to have such a great legacy, and thank you so much for taking the time to share what you remember.

NT: [01:09:31] Thank you for coming and asking us these great questions.  I mean anything we can do to -- I wish we were better about some of these dates and names, but it’s just so important to us --

MT: [01:09:43] You just wish we were younger -- (laughter) with better memories.  

NT: [01:09:48] It’s just really important to us to do whatever we can to keep our dad’s legacy out there.  It certainly was a pivotal time of our lives, I would say, growing up.  [01:10:00] But we really do appreciate you taking the time and doing this whole effort.  I want to watch all the interviews.  Do you post them as you get them edited?

PL: [01:10:09] Well, we go through a process of sending them off for transcriptions, then they have to be edited, then we have to -- we select video clips that we want to highlight.  I’ll just say that the project started by interviewing specifically the people who’ve been on the front lines of integrating sports teams --

NT: [01:10:37] That’s right.  That’s right. 

PL: [01:10:37] -- and it started with the assumption that everyone says sports is the great equalizer, it’s all about winning, we admire athletic prowess, etcetera.  So we started out there.  We learned in the process of doing these interviews that [01:11:00] the story was so much bigger than just race and sports, and people would tell us things like, “Well, you know, it was fine on the sports field, and people were cheering for us -- as long as you were winning, everybody was cheering for you.  But then you went into the classroom, and it was different.”  So we couldn’t just tell the story of sports which is why we changed it from calling it Race and Sports, to No Playbook because so many people told us there was no preparation.  People just got thrown into this situation, there was no teacher training, there was no training -- no opportunity for kids to think about what it would be to suddenly be together across races.  So we changed it.  Then we’ve been trying to interview some teachers because we think their perspective of what happened in the classroom would be important.  We’ve been having problems finding enough teachers.  And then we thought, “Well, if we could get to some of the people who were administrators and learn it from their perspective, that would help, too.”  But, of course, none of those people are alive, so you can only get that through their children.  

NT: [01:12:14] I see, yeah. 

PL: [01:12:15] And so that’s how we got you.  (laughs)

NT: [01:12:18] Oh, good.  Well, we’re glad you got to us.  And does the project have an ending?

PL: [01:12:23] Soon. (laughter)

NT: [01:12:24] Is that right?  (laughter) 

 

END OF AUDIO