Robert King

PHYLLIS LEFFLER: [00:00:00] So good morning. 

ROBERT KING: [00:00:01] Good morning.

PL: [00:00:02] I am Phyllis Leffler.  I’m at the house of Robert King.  Today is February 7th [2022]. [Extraneous material redacted.] And accompanying me are George Gilliam, and Annie Valentine, and Lorenzo Dickerson to be part of this project on race and sports for the Albemarle County Historical Society.  So now that I’ve got that background (laughs) there, well thank you so much for doing this for us.  I really appreciate it.

RK: [00:00:34] Yes, I think it’s important.  Thank you.

PL: [00:00:37] Great.  So I’m going to start out with something very basic.  I know you’re going to know the answer to this question (laughs), can you tell us your date of birth?

RK: [00:00:44] Oh yeah, 1/6/1951.  

PL: [00:00:49] 1/6/1951.  And what was your specific address growing up?

RK: [00:00:54] 509, oh excuse me, 508 13th Street. 

PL: [00:00:58] Okay and [00:01:00] that’s so interesting to me that, you know, that you were born across the street.  That you now live right where you grew up, then you left for a while but then still came back to the same street.  

RK: [00:01:13] I always felt Charlottesville was home.  It’s where I really should be.  

PL: [00:01:17] That’s wonderful.  That’s nice, we hope to hear the evolution of that story this morning a little bit.  So can you tell me about siblings? 

RK: [00:01:26] I have an older sister, Julia Stewart, who lives in Bellevue, Illinois.  And an older brother, George King.  Just my sister’s seven years, my brother’s five years older.  Okay.  

PL: [00:01:45] Okay, thank you.  And what did your parents do?  Were they both employed while you were growing up?

RK: [00:01:50] Yeah, my whole family.  We were from UVA.  Everybody worked for UVA.  And it was just convenient.  My grandfather was a baker [00:02:00] back when everything was done in the kitchens, in the bakeries at UVA for the hospital employees and for the patients.  So he was a baker.  And as you can see, he chose this location because it’s a short walk up 14th Street.  And then, if you know where the old hospital is, that’s where they went.  And so it was a quick trip.  So my father followed him into baking and then moved from that to become an orderly.  Wasn’t a whole lot available for Black people, so he became an orderly.  He transferred that into, his job was to get watches, and wallets, valuables from the patients, and take them to a secure location and then return them when the patient was ready to leave.  And he also delivered the mail [00:03:00] to the doctors in all the different wards and different places there, offices.  So I think he came up with the idea to less centralize it.  So the UVA gave him a small office, just a chair and a little small table.  And he started having doctors to come to him to pick up their mails and valuables for the patients in different wards.  So he really, in a sense, I think he started a department at UVA.  Which was the post office.  So it just grew.  He designed the post office room with boxes just like [00:04:00] you see when you go downtown to pay for a box.  But he had those for doctors and the doctors would have their key and open it up and get the mail out.  And as a child, I would ride my bicycle up there from the rusty ashes of the alleyways behind these homes.  Because people burned coal and they’d throw their ashes out into the alleyway.  You know, I’d be playing out there and I’d get on my bike, I didn’t know anything about cleaning.  And go up and see my father.  He never rejected me.  One day Mama said, “Robert you should make sure you clean up.  Change pants, wash your face before you go up there.”  And I did that from then on but I would always get on my bike, go up there, and make my way back to the mailroom.  And he would put me on a chair while he was selling stamps.  Or he would take me through the hospital on a mail cart and all the doctors and nurses just [00:05:00] made over, “This is your son?”  (laughter) He loved that and I loved it too.  Because it was getting all this attention.  And when he would go over to McKim Hall, I think he was delivering the mail to leave the hospital and picking up mail coming in.

PL: [00:05:15] That’s great.  And did your mother work --

RK: [00:05:17] Maybe it was Newcomb Hall?  And yes she did too.  She was in the newborn nursery at UVA. 

PL: [00:05:24] Was she a nurse?

RK: [00:05:25] No, she took care of the babies.  So you know, she would kind of clean them up.  I think she was considered a nurse’s aide.  And then hand the baby over to mothers.

PL: [00:05:41] So I’ve heard stories, I’ve seen information about the hospital being segregated and the Black wards were in the basements and things like that.  Did your folks talk about that to you?  Or had it --

RK: [00:05:57] It wasn’t really talked [00:06:00] about.  But I remember.  My father had been in a serious accident, I think somewhere in the ’30s, and that’s where he was.  So that might have been talked about.  And then whenever I was with him on that little cart, I remember going through that area with all those exposed pipes and small turns and things like that.  So that was my experience with that.  And I was probably born there.  

PL: [00:06:30] Interesting.  So what schools did you attend in Charlottesville, and can you remember what years?  

RK: [00:06:40] Not really.  I’d have to do some counting. (laughs) But it would have been Jefferson.  I was six in 1957.  Born in ’51, I was six in 1957.  So I spent three years, which would have been up to 1960, at Jefferson. [00:07:00] So I mean, going into the fourth grade I think, I moved to Venable.  Came to integrate Venable.  

PL: [00:07:10] So that would have been ’60, ’61? 

RK: [00:07:13] Yeah, ’61.  I think so.

PL: [00:07:15] So tell us about that experience.

RK: [00:07:17] Well, you know, I was a kid.  Very much a kid.  So it’s hard to, I remember I just wanted to go to school.  I knew what King was doing.  And Martin King wanted to integrate our society.  I understood that at that age.  So I’d felt that someone had to do it.  If I’m only a half a block from the school I would have needed to integrate, I was prime subject.  (laughs) I was the guy who should be doing it.  And I was very much in support of what he [00:08:00] was doing, even at that age.

PL: [00:08:03] So your parents must have talked to you -- 

RK: [00:08:04] They did.

PL: [00:08:05] -- about King.  And they must have --

RK: [00:08:07] Talked to me about King?

PL: [00:08:08] Yeah.

RK: [00:08:09] Well he was on TV.  You know, I saw all that he went through on TV in the news.  I don’t know if there was any particular conversations about him from my parents.  But I could see it.  

PL: [00:08:22] So in an earlier conversation that we had, you mentioned something about Reverend Mitchell and Eugene Williams having come to talk to your parents about the possibility of your going to Venable?

RK: [00:08:36] That’s right.  Right.  Yeah, they did.  They came and they wanted to know if I wanted to go to Venable.  And of course Mom and Dad came to me and says, “Robert, do you want to?”  And I said, “Yeah okay.”  I was leaving all of my Black friends and I was leaving the teachers.  First Baptist was the premier church [00:09:00] in Charlottesville.  And that’s where the doctors, the mortuaries, dentists, doctors, anybody that had a business went to First Baptist.  So I was there.  Miss Dosie Johnson, my first grade teacher, knew me when I was born walking into the church.  I mean, being carried into the church.  So these teachers knew me.  Mrs. Robinson, my second grade teacher, who owned a home out on Preston Avenue.  And if you may have heard of an area called Robinson Court, she sold them the land.  And then she moved into a retirement home.  She lived to be I think over 100.  But she was awesome.  And then Mrs. Virginia King, who married Ray Bell [00:10:00], she became Mrs. Bell.  And she was my third grade teacher.  So I was leaving all of that.  Everybody I just mentioned went to First Baptist.  So they knew me.  They would have, in hindsight, they would have taken good care of me.  So I decided to go be the route of integration.  

PL: [00:10:28] So did your older siblings go to integrated schools or were you the first in your family to do that?

RK: [00:10:41] George and I did it at the same time. 

PL: [00:10:43] You did it at the same time.

RK: [00:10:44] Except he was at a older grade and I was elementary.  

PL: [00:10:50] So that must have been hard.  I mean, did you feel it was difficult once you got into Venable?  Did you sense that you had lost a lot?

RK: [00:10:59] I didn’t know, [00:11:00] I mean I can tell you that now.  I didn’t know that then, yeah.  But yeah, there was some issues at Venable.

PL: [00:11:09] What were they?

RK: [00:11:11] You know, some people went through Venable, talking about people who integrated the schools, you see how Kent left, went through the system.  And he went on to become a football star and got his master’s degree in business.  I mean he did well.  Not everybody, you know, had a problem.  But I did.  I think I had a little dyslexia.  And I don’t think they knew how to teach someone with dyslexia.  Or if they didn’t want to because I know I have another friend that y’all have already interviewed that was on the football team who has it as well.  But he was able to overcome it.  Somebody worked with him.  But I didn’t get that work. [00:12:00] And so, I think I was a pretty smart kid.  But I just didn’t test well.  

PL: [00:12:10] So do you feel like the teachers gave up on you in some way? 

RK: [00:12:14] In a sense they did.  Not every one of them.  There was one when I got to the sixth or seventh grade that was excellent.  She called my mother and father to tell them what my progress was or what was going on with Robert.  I think she was the most active one in my life.

PL: [00:12:31] And was that Mrs. McKeith     

RK: [00:12:35] Yes.

PL: [00:12:35] Yeah you told me about that earlier.

RK: [00:12:36] That’s good.  She was good. (laughter) She was a good lady.  

PL: [00:12:40] Tell us the story, because you shared this with me before, tell us the story about your fourth-grade teacher and what she would do in the mornings.  Because I think that’s an important -- 

RK: [00:12:48] Mrs. McCue was an old school teacher.  She was at the end of her working career.  And if you were to see her, [00:13:00] you would see wire rim glasses, a dress down to maybe mid-calf, and shoes that I think private school teachers wore, pretty much, in those days.  And you know, they had a little small square heel.  Very sturdy shoe.  And so, it’s like looking at somebody who’s a teacher in the 1920s.  (laughter) Is kind of like what that was looking like.  I ended up in her class, I think all of the students, the group of us we all went to different rooms.  And I don’t think she really wanted me there.  But I think the “Old Black Joe,” saying of when we would do the Lord’s prayer, sang the national anthem, and [00:14:00] “Old Black Joe,” it was maybe a couple of other things in there then “Old Black Joe.”  And of course, me the only thing I didn’t like about “Old Black Joe” was they were saying old Black Joe, you know?  So that kind of, in those days we were referred to as coloreds.  And at least, you know, I could deal with that.  We weren’t Negro.  Blacks didn’t really care for Negro.  They settled for colored.  And to get away from that other word.  I remember as a child if somebody called you Black you know, you break a Coca Cola bottle and cut them.  (laughs) You know?  That was fighting words.

PL: [00:14:51] It was an insult.  Yeah, really.

RK: [00:14:52] Yeah, and so to hear “Old Black Joe” in class [00:15:00] was hurting to me.  And Venable has those tall windows, and my chair was along those windows.  I would just turn my head away from the class because I’d have tears coming down.  I hated that.  That’s what I remember.  And I can’t today, if you were to look up “Old Black Joe” on YouTube, and hear the words, why she would use that in a classroom setting other than to try and get me to go home and tell my parents.  To get me out of there.  And I knew that –- what King was doing, I couldn’t leave.  I had to stay.  Because I had to integrate the schools.  (laughs)

PL: [00:15:58] That’s a powerful [00:16:00] mission for such a young child to carry with them.  

RK: [00:16:07] That’s my point, yeah.  I’ve been a demonstrator for a long time.  And I didn’t give myself that credit until recently.  (laughter)

PL: [00:16:20] Well I’m glad you have.  When did you get involved in sports?  And how?

RK: [00:16:28] My goodness, from the time that I was able to walk.  We were just little kids playing on the dump.

PL: [00:16:39] Where was the dump?

RK: [00:16:40] The dump is the biggest field at Venable.  It’s the long field at the bottom, like you’ve got different playgrounds.  There’s the upper playground and there’s another one that’s paved.  And still you go further down.  And we played football.  Basketball.  There was a basketball rim down there.  There was a baseball diamond.  [00:17:00] And there was just a big field.  The same size of any football field, 100 yards. And that’s where I started playing sports.  Kent, me, T.J. Wells that I told you I hoped you would get to see and talk to, all of us.  There was a lot of us, lot of us.  And in those days when we would get together to play a football game, it was about rivalries.  Community rivalries.  You had gangs, other communities had gangs, we had football games.  And we played to see who was the best in that community.

PL: [00:17:39] So within the African American community there were different groups that played one another?  There weren’t formal leagues, were there?  

RK: [00:17:50] No. 

PL: [00:17:51] That you played against?  You just formed your own team and --

RK: [00:17:53] It’s just boys that hung around each other.  And we’d get together and play a football game.  So we played [00:18:00] Thanksgiving Day.  We played all the time.  But we always had a game on Thanksgiving Day.  And we played until dinner was ready, which was around 2:30, three-ish, maybe four, no later than four.  The game started every Thanksgiving Day at 12 noon.  And we played until, my mother would holler out the back door that old school Rob, “Rob!”  (laughter) If I couldn’t hear it, the kids on the first playground would go come down and says, “Robert, your mama’s calling you.”  And that game was over for me.  (laughter) If it was in the middle of the play, I was leaving.   

PL: [00:18:49] Time for Thanksgiving dinner.

RK: [00:18:50] It’s time and you’re hungry.  Playing football and playing football and you came home.  

PL: [00:18:53] I’ll bet, I’ll bet.  Yeah. 

RK: [00:18:55] Because you knew it was time for dinner.  And so, but that translated when they start, [00:19:00] you know, they call it the Turkey Bowl.  I was talking to the guys, I said, “You know, we should invite some sort of recognition for the people who started it.”  But they have a little issue with that because they say that they started it.  It was not called a Turkey Bowl, and they were right.  And it was just a group of kids playing on that field.  But they play at 12 until about two.  

PL: [00:19:25] And that’s a big tradition now, right? 

RK: [00:19:28] Huge.  And so it just grew.  It just showed you that when you do something, and people are watching you, they would imitate that.  We used to play tennis off of that big wall in the gym at Venable.  You still see people batting the ball off of that window, off of that big wall in the parking lot there.  So people get habits.  They do what they saw other people do.

PL: [00:20:00] So after you left Venable, did you then go to Walker School for second grade?

RK: [00:20:05] It was technically Walker but you know, I think they were having some issues with supplies for the new schools.  Maybe bathroom facilities, the toilets hadn’t been installed or something.  So, but they weren’t ready to open up.  So when we became of age and we were the group to go to Walker, we ended up having to go to Jefferson.  Walker went from eight to 12.  And Buford would come in at 12 until four.  Same school.  That’s how that was handled for that first year at Walker and Buford were supposed to be open.  And then after that, the schools did open the following year and then we went over to Walker.  

PL: [00:20:53] But you went back to Jefferson?  In between?

RK: [00:20:54] I went back to Jefferson to do my first year at Walker.

PL: [00:20:58] (laughs) I don’t get that. 

RK: [00:21:00] They just used the building.

PL: [00:21:01] They just used the building but they called it, I see.  

RK: [00:21:03] It was still called Jefferson but it was the Walker students.  Everybody that was in that district was from eight to 12 and then Buford from --

PL: [00:21:11] So you went back to the school where you had been in first --

RK: [00:21:14] First, second, and third.

PL: [00:21:16] In first, second, and third.  And do you remember how you felt being back in that space or was...

RK: [00:21:22] No, there was like, it was like home.  Yeah, and my parents went to that school.  It was only eighth grade.  It only went up to eighth grade.  

PL: [00:21:35] So you’re there for one year and then you go to Lane?  Right?  

RK: [00:21:39] I went to the actual Walker for one year, and then went to Lane.  

PL: [00:21:44] So tenth, eleventh, and twelfth at Lane?

RK: [00:21:46] Yes it was.  That’s right.

PL: [00:21:47] So not ninth grade at Lane. 

RK: [00:21:49] It was ninth at Walker. 

PL: [00:21:51] So tell us about your experience at Lane.

RK: [00:21:55] It was good.  You know, it was good.  By that time I was acclimated to the system and what was [00:22:00] going on.  I knew the teachers.  You know, I knew the kids.  So it was good.  When I got to the tenth grade, or the ninth grade I think it was, they had junior varsity.  So I would leave Walker and go down to Lane to practice in junior varsity and play on the junior varsity team.  And then in the tenth grade I joined the Lane team.  Seniors, the seniors --

PL: [00:22:27] So those are the very same years that Kent was on the team.  You joined at exactly the same time, same year.  

RK: [00:22:33] That’s right, that’s right.

PL: [00:22:35] And so you would have played under Coach Theodose?

RK: [00:23:37] That’s right.  And Coach Bingler.  

PL: [00:22:40] And Coach Bingler.  And what was that like for you?  I mean was --

RK: [00:22:43] Tough.  

PL: [00:22:45] Okay. Can you explain --

RK: [00:22:46] We’d already skinned our knees down at Venable at the dump.  We were ready for those guys.  You put together the boys of this community, now they [00:23:00] called it 10th and Page, and then the boys from Belmont.  There’s friction.  That friction produced one hell of a team. 

PL: [00:23:15] How so?

RK: [00:23:17] You know, we took it out on the other team.  (laughter) Instead of each other.  We had respect for each other.  They were strong boys.  They were strong, the Belmont boys were strong.  They were tough.  

PL: [00:23:33] But what school would they have been at?

RK: [00:23:35] McGuffey.

PL: [00:23:36] Oh I see.

RK: [00:23:37] And then they would have gone to the two junior high schools.  

PL: [00:23:43] But then at –-

RK: [00:23:45] Clark I think, McGuffey, Clark’s down that way?  Where’s Clark at?  And then McIntire.  They would have gone to McIntire.  Which is right across from McIntire Park.  

PL: [00:23:55] Right, but I’m trying to figure out, those kids were not at Lane?

RK: [00:23:59] Well they, I mean they [00:24:00] came of age they came to Lane just like we did when I came of age.

PL: [00:24:03] Okay, so wouldn’t they have been on the same team?

RK: [00:24:05] They were on the same team.  Yeah we were.  

PL: [00:24:07] Oh, okay.

RK: [00:24:08] We were on the same team.  

PL: [00:24:09] Oh I see, but --

RK: [00:24:10] But we were still, a little bit, you know we weren’t --

PL: [00:24:16] Buddy-buddy.

RK: [00:24:18] Yeah, we weren’t hanging out a lot but we were teammates.  And we both came from different backgrounds.  You know, so I like to say there was a little tension there.  But it was a very little.  Because I’m friends with almost all of them now.  And it was enough to make us rough.  We had good coaches.  Theodose was awesome.  He didn’t coach me, Bingler did.  Theodose coached the quarterbacks, running backs.  And Bingler took the line.  And I was a lineman.  

PL: [00:24:52] So you were guarding Kent.  

RK: [00:24:53] That’s right.  (laughter) I opened up a lot of holes for him.  

PL: [00:24:57] See?  He couldn’t have done it without you.

RK: [00:24:58] He couldn’t have done it.  [00:25:00] Because I was a guard.  And Theodose and Bingler believed in trapping.  And guards trap.  Yeah.  And they’d sent Kent, if he hits the hole right he was gone.  Because the hole was there, it’s not open real long but it’s there, and he needs to get through it.  Then he was pretty fast.  Pitch him out, do pitch outs. 

PL: [00:25:21] So we’ve heard stories about some of the first people to go to Lane from Burley.  And what we’ve heard is that if you went from Burley to Lane in the earliest years, like the earlier ’60s.  Maybe the years your brother might have, you know, been at Lane, that you lost a year of eligibility.  Do you know anything about that?

RK: [00:25:50] To play in high school? 

PL: [00:25:52] Yeah, so that happened to Garwin DeBerry.  That he ended up transferring, you know, going from [00:26:00] Burley to Lane, but he wasn’t allowed to play.  And therefore, his mother wrote to the superintendent asking for him to go back to Burley.  Which he did.

RK: [00:26:10] He did that, right.

PL: [00:26:11] He did that.  So it doesn’t seem like you’re aware of any of that happening.

RK: [00:26:16] That didn’t happen to any of us that I know of.  Didn’t happen to my brother.  Because he went from one year at Burley to, I think his, in 1963 when he was a senior, he played with Lane.  That was the year they went to the championship.  State champions. 

PL: [00:26:36] And you didn’t feel any kind of, it sounds like you didn’t feel any sort of discrimination in the sports arena. 

RK: [00:26:46] Bingler and Coach Theodose played to win.  They didn’t play, Doctor so and so’s son [00:27:00] gets to play because they’re good friends.  He played the best players.  So did Bingler.  So no, there was no discrimination there.  We had a fairly large Black team.  For that period. 

PL: [00:27:15] That’s great.  And so tell us what role you think sports has in the process of desegregating education.  Do you think sports was really important?

RK: [00:27:27] Huge.  Yeah.  When the student body saw us out on the field, they felt a part.  Yeah, it was huge.  Yeah.  And we won.  A lot.  (laughs)

PL: [00:27:42] Were you aware that you were playing that role in terms of getting people comfortable, you know, with the people of other backgrounds and races?  Were you aware of that at that time, that you were being an athlete, had a direct impact? 

RK: [00:27:59] To a degree [00:28:00] I probably was.  You know, I went to Burley.  Early on everything I thought I was going to be in line to go to Burley.  But you know, and I would go down to those games and it would be standing room only.  And you don’t win at Burley.  Because something was going to happen to your bus or something was going to happen to something of yours on your way out of town.  (laughs) Burley, you know, they ruled.  They ruled the football field.  And it was an awesome school.  But, you know, I knew that those times had come to an end.  We had to move on and do things right.  Integrate schools.  And so I didn’t feel that missing.  Lane took that, when they won state championship, people would fill that field up.  I mean it was unusual [00:29:00] for such a high school, it was only around the circle of the track.  There were people standing two and three deep.  Because there was no seats in the stands.  It was the happening in Charlottesville.

PL: [00:29:15] Do you have any understanding of why Burley and Lane never played one another? 

RK: [00:29:21] It would have been a race thing.  I think they wanted to, and probably I believe Burley would have kicked Lane’s butt.  (laughter) And that’s one reason, they didn’t want that to happen.  And then they also wanted to play, Burley wanted to play UVA.  They did.  So they thought they were pretty awesome.  (laughs) And they were.  Those were rough boys.

PL: [00:29:47] But they never, they wouldn’t have played UVA -- 

RK: [00:29:49] No, they didn’t.  It never happened.  And Lane never played.  One good thing, in 1974 I think Albemarle and Lane played.  On the field at UVA.  I was already gone but [00:30:00] they went to Scott Stadium.  Played a big game. 

PL: [00:30:04] Did you know any of the students at Albemarle who were on those teams?  We’re having trouble identifying people that we can talk to from Albemarle, you know.  Although I think Lorenzo is finding some people for us so that will be good.

RK: [00:30:19] One died.  What was his name?  I can’t think of his name right now.  He was a running back.  Tough guy.  About three years ago.  

PL: [00:30:27] So what about in the classrooms at Lane?  Did you feel equally welcomed in a classroom situation?

RK: [00:30:35] Yeah.  You know, you just kind of pick your head up.  And by that time in high school, I was a football player.  And I was looked upon as a football player.  And so, I didn’t feel anything.  Not really.  

PL: [00:30:51] Were you aware that there were reports of fights going on in the hallway between --

RK: [00:30:57] Oh yeah, I was around there with that happening.

PL: [00:31:00] Oh, can you tell us about that?

RK: [00:31:01] Yeah I mean, the principal was, if you’ve been in Lane High School, that’s a big open foyer area as you come in.  You got the principal on the left-hand side and the chancellor’s office on the right-hand side.  So that area would be circled.  The principal, the white students kind of like circled on that side.  The Black students are circled on this side.  And I cannot really remember what the issue was.  But we did have that a couple of, at least once or twice.  I think we had a problem with the assistant principal, is what it was. 

ANNIE VALENTINE: [00:31:36] Willie Barnett?  Was that --

RK: [00:31:38] No, it wasn’t him.  It was another guy.  Willie Barnett was a assistant principal.  He also became the athletic director.  And he wasn’t hated that I remember.  He went to Venable.  He was a Venable      student.  And he was a teacher at Venable I believe, of sports.  It was [00:32:00] another, it was a younger guy.  I can’t think of his name right now, that they didn’t like.  The Black students didn’t like him too well.  I think it was maybe how they were treated when he came into the office.  Might have been something like that.

PL: [00:32:17] And we’ve also heard that the hallways were pretty crowded at Lane and that sort of tended to facilitate people kind of bumping into one another and picking fights. 

RK: [00:32:28] I don’t remember that.  What I remember is that was a good time to see your girlfriend.  You lean on the windowsill and you’re talking to your girlfriend and after that, off to class.  (laughter) You know, something like that yeah.  It was friends meeting friends at that time.  

PL: [00:32:45] So the yearbooks, you know, tell a lot of stories, just looking at pictures in yearbooks you see a lot.  And also they identify a lot of things.  So, what I know about you just from research that our friend here Annie [00:33:00] has done, and I’m going to ask you to talk about this, is that you were an usher.  That you were in the American Field Service Club, in the Key Club, in a Monogram Club, and on student council, and on something called the Biracial Committee. 

RK: [00:33:20] I don’t remember that one.  I may have been on that and forgotten about it.  Or maybe I didn’t take it very seriously.

PL: [00:33:26] So what were you an usher for?

RK: [00:33:29] That was the school usher.

PL: [00:33:31] What did you do?

RK: [00:33:32] You wear a badge like this that identifies you as being an usher and you were looking for, you know, anything.  There was something happening in the auditorium, you would kind of be there to steer students down into the auditorium.  Maybe at lunchrooms we were there as ushers.  We couldn’t break up fights but maybe we would have a connection with the students and say, [00:34:00] “Hey, you know, don’t do that.”  You don’t want to do that in front of Robert, or Edwina, you know?  To be respectful.

PL: [00:34:14] What was the Monogram Club?

RK: [00:34:17] It’s the, what I remember about the Monogram Club is it deals with our Lane High School, the emblem.  The stars that you wear for your years of completion and lettering of each year.  So to me, it was about the monograms.  And we had a few of them, you know.  So that was that.  And I was actually in the Key Club too, which was a portion of the Kiwanis.  It was kind of like a sub high school version of a [00:35:00] Kiwanis Club.

PL: [00:35:01] And what did you do in that club as a result of that?

RK: [00:35:04] Well we would have a meeting occasionally.  We’d go out and help the Kiwanis with selling Christmas trees and things like that.  Doing things to raise funds for the community.  

PL: [00:35:11] So service oriented.  

RK: [00:35:12] That’s right.  

PL: [00:35:14] What’d you do on student council? 

RK: [00:35:16] That one I don’t really remember being a part of.  Maybe I didn’t go to the meetings.  (laughter) It’s possible, you know. 

PL: [00:35:26] So I think we have you down for student council as ’68 and ’69, and ’69 and ’70. 

RK: [00:35:33] Really?  No kidding.  I may have been down, you know, and went to a few meetings but it didn’t impress me apparently.  

PL: [00:35:42] Okay.  So I’m going to try to, we’re not exactly sure what this Biracial Committee is either.  But we know that people like Byrd Leavell, Lloyd Snook, and Larry Fortune, well [00:36:00] they may not have all been on the Biracial Committee so let me backtrack a little bit.  Do you remember Annie, who would have been on the Biracial Committee?

RK: [00:36:13] At that time?

AV: [00:36:15] In ’68, in from what we’ve learned it was a little bit of a maybe a even more challenging year than the years before, because Burley had just closed.  So that ’67, ’68 school year would have had brought a lot more Black students who weren’t so happy to be there, to Lane.  And so we’ve heard that that was the year that there was a lot more racial tension that was really prominent in the community.  And so there were walkouts and several other organized activities and more fights and things like that.  And so, it’s our understanding that there was a Biracial Committee of students who were coming together who were trying to bring the community back together and sort of face [00:37:00] that.  Do you remember anything like that?

RK: [00:37:02] I guess, you know, you’re jogging a few memories.  Yeah.  I just remember myself.  I didn’t have those issues.  I didn’t think that I did.  Because I had already been in the system since Venable. 

PL: [00:37:14] So you think maybe that helped?

RK: [00:37:15] Yeah, oh definitely.  Definitely.  Yeah.  I had already worked through some of those issues and some of those problems.  And I could see them at Lane but I’d say, well whatever they’re working through I wasn’t having that issue, so I didn’t feel like I needed to be a part of it, apparently.  I just wanted to play sports.  

PL: [00:37:34] Right because this Biracial Committee, we think but we’re not sure that they in some way supported these student walkouts.  Or maybe didn’t, we’re just not really sure.  These were student walkouts that seemed to end up at Trinity Church.  

RK: [00:37:53] Okay.  That’s probably true.  They went to see Reverend Mitchell.

PL: [00:37:57] Exactly.  Exactly.

RK: [00:37:58] I remember that.  

PL: [00:37:59] Who was [00:38:00] very supportive of these young people who kind of were demanding, you know, more Black teachers in the school.  A curriculum that would deal with Black history or you know, or issues that were of interest to Black students and things like that.  But I can see from the way you’re looking at me that this was not a part of your world at that time.

RK: [00:38:22] It was, it was a part of me, you know, because I knew what Reverend Mitchell was doing.  I was there at that church with him a lot.  But I cannot really remember that portion.  I was a part of it.  I guarantee you.  

PL: [00:38:41] You were a part of it?

RK: [00:38:42] Yes, in a sense.  I was there at the church occasionally and I think my attitude was, is that I was okay.  I didn’t have to complain.  

PL: [00:38:55] And were you aware of a group that was called the Wrecking Crew?

RK: [00:39:00] Oh yeah, that’s who we played against.  And it was us, it was the Venable neighborhood boys which was 11th, 10th and a half, 11th, 12th, 13th, the boys that lived there.  Against the Page Street boys.  And that was the Wrecking Crew.

PL: [00:39:22] Really?  And why’d they call themselves that?

RK: [00:39:25] They didn’t call it, Flip Mary called them that.

PL: [00:39:28] Who was that?

RK: [00:39:29] He was the park director for Washington Park.  And we all grew up in Washington Park.  I’d get on my bike, “Mom I’m going to the park.”  And that’s the first thing I’d do is head straight over there and play basketball, play checkers.  Play whatever the games were in the park house.  Tennis, ping pong, you know, there was a pool, a wading pool kind of like the one they just took down at McIntire.  There was a wading pool there too.  So yeah, [00:40:00] what it was, this is why he said it, those boys would come in.  Afros, blue glasses small like this, black leather jackets, and combs stuck in the back of their afros --

PL: [00:40:22] They’re the tough guys. 

RK: [00:40:24] -- with the fist in it.  And they would walk into the park and sit around the little park house.  And Flip would say, “Oh Lord.  Here comes the Wrecking Crew.”  So they kept the name.  (laughs) In other words, peace was no longer there.  (laughter) There was going to be some trouble.  

PL: [00:40:50] (laughs) Okay, but so that was just a neighborhood thing rather than a school-based thing.  

RK: [00:40:56] Yes, that’s all it was.  And they went on, they’re still together, close.  [00:41:00] Close as possible.  And they actually started throwing parties.  The Wrecking Crew, they would throw some great parties.  Invite everybody in.

PL: [00:41:12] What about the Lane Motorcycle Club?  Was that something that was familiar to you?

RK: [00:41:17] No.  I don’t know about the Lane Motorcycle Club.  

PL: [00:41:22] You want to tell him about it?  (laughs)

AV: [00:41:23] Well it was a group of white students that one teacher described as a sort of Lane version of a KKK because they were just, they must have grown up in families that were really unhappy about desegregation.  And so that was sort of what we’ve come to understand might have been the most prominent students who were really unhappy about what was going on, that were white students.  

RK: [00:41:52] Yeah, in those days you couldn’t figure out that was happening.  You really couldn’t.  You know, I had like a horse with blinders on and all I wanted to do was play [00:42:00] football.  And that you know there are things going on you just not like to interest yourself in all of them.  And I’m sure that’s where my intention was there.  Sports kept me out of a lot of trouble.  And my parents would say, “Robert if you win, if the team, y’all win,” they would encourage us, “There will be a steak dinner here waiting for you.”

PL: [00:42:26] That’s a motivator.  (laughs)

RK: [00:42:29] Baked potato, my father could cook.  Boy.  That steak didn’t hit the frying pan until around 10:30.  Ten-ish, 10:30.  So as I grew older, I found that what that was really all about.  Because after you win, the boys we’d go up and go partying.  Go drink, drink beer, party.  But that was the way of getting me back home.  (laughs) And my mother would say, “Well Robert, it’s getting too [00:43:00] late for you to go out.”  And I would agree with her.  So she kept me in.  That’s how they kept me in.  Slick, wasn’t it?  (laughs)

PL: [00:43:12] Do you remember away games and any issues that came up at any of those away games?  

RK: [00:43:18] No not really.  You know, in Richmond we just conquered all the teams we played in Richmond.  They hated us.  And they called us the country boys.  And so, but you know, I remember after the game we would go to Shoney’s.  And there was only, McDonald’s there was none in Charlottesville at the time.  So there was a McDonald’s and a Shoney’s.  And the bus would pull in there.  So you can go, you can either stay here at Shoney’s or you can go over to McDonald’s.  So we had that choice.  And those were the two restaurants the coaches knew that would serve us.  

PL: [00:43:58] So they consciously --

RK: [00:43:59] So it was not any problem.

PL: [00:43:59] -- they consciously took you [00:44:00] there so that there was not a problem.

RK: [00:44:01] Took us there.  To keep problems down.

PL: [00:44:05] Do you remember the principal of Lane High School?  John Huegel?

RK: [00:44:09] Huegel? Yeah, yeah.

PL: [00:44:11] Do you think he had any impact on race relations at the school?  One way or another?  

RK: [00:44:17] Not really.  I don’t think he, I don’t know.  He didn’t seem to be one way or the other to me.  He was just the principal.  And apparently there were some issues.  I don’t see him on the Black side necessarily, but we had a Black school counselor.  And a few Black teachers.  

PL: [00:44:47] Are you aware that there was a grade minimum to join things like student government or cheerleading, or to play sports?

RK: [00:44:56] No.  Well, yes I guess so.  You couldn’t have a [00:45:00] D.  I think is what it was.  I don’t know what the point average was at that point.  I was always skirting that.  (laughter) I was just barely on the field when it came to that, you know.  Either the coach had connections, I don’t know which way it could have been.

PL: [00:45:25] We know that in the winter of 1968 that that grade level was lowered a little bit by Lane administration.  In response to student’s demands that students felt, you know, I think some students felt that Black students were being discriminated against by white teachers.  That they were being graded down, and therefore were not able to participate in other things.  And that was one of the student protest demands to get that grade minimum lowered.  And so it was, in the winter of ’68.  [00:46:00] But it didn’t affect you because you were skirting it.  You were doing okay, right?

RK: [00:46:05] I did well.  I mean I was a good student when it comes to being a good kid.  You know, so I didn’t have a whole lot of issues with the teachers.  

PL: [00:46:14] Good.

RK: [00:46:15] I mean I did when I was in at Walker High School.  I was involved in a fight with a group, with a guy.  And who was from Belmont.  And I think I left, I went through school from then on with a something in my records as saying, he’s a troublemaker.  Which I wasn’t.  It was just that one fight and I was sticking up for myself.  We cleared the classroom out, because desks were everywhere.  And I went through that for the rest of, because people who said, “You were a troublemaker.”  But they were just going off what they saw on the record, not who I really was.  [00:47:00]

PL: [00:47:01] What was Charlottesville like at that time for a person growing up here?  The wider city, I mean if we look beyond.  Did you ever venture into the wider city?  Did you go down, for example, to downtown?  

RK: [00:47:15] A lot.  I’d go downtown.  It was Fry’s Springs was the area that you wanted to stay out of.  And the beach club.  You were not allowed out there.  And Belmont, the thing was do not be caught in Belmont after dark.  

PL: [00:47:36] We’ve heard that.

RK: [00:47:37] Do not be caught in Lee Park after dark.  So therefore, I, my first time I had ever put a foot in Lee Park was, it was during this early period.  They wanted to get rid of this statue first very early on and we got on a [00:48:00] Charlottesville jaunt bus, or a jaunt bus, and we took a tour of all the different locations in the city.  And Lee Park was one of them.  And I stepped off the bus into Lee Park for the first time in probably 19, 2015, something like that.  Twenty-fifteen.

PL: [00:48:18] The first time you were in Lee Park?  

RK: [00:48:20] First time ever.  That I would allow myself to go into the park.

PL: [00:48:25] And was that because you would have felt intimidated or angry about the --

RK: [00:48:31] Intimidated, angry about the fact that that was a place that, which was right across the street from the library that we couldn’t go.  We were told not to be there.  The nativity scene that was there every year, I never walked up to it.  Just looked at it, viewed it from the street.  So I mean, that’s just hands on view of looking at what Lee Park was doing to people.  [00:49:00]

PL: [00:49:08] So this is not fully the subject of our interview today but I have to ask you since this has come up, are you glad to see the statue gone?

RK: [00:49:19] Oh yeah.  I went down to take pictures, I have them in here of it coming off the podium and going down on the truck and going down the road backwards.  (laughter) I loved it.

PL: [00:49:34] So just real quickly, what did you do after you left Lane High School?

RK: [00:49:39] I went to Saint Paul’s College, a small college in Lawrenceville, Virginia.  I stayed there not quite a year and decided that my parents could do better with their money that they were paying for me to be there.  And I was right.  They built this house as soon as I came out of it.  [00:50:00] Yeah.  They used that money more wisely.  And I went on to start a career in the grocery business.  And I stayed in there.  I had a vision that of I’m going to become the manager of a grocery store, of a major chain, and I did finally.  

PL: [00:50:19] What was the chain?

RK: [00:50:21] A&P.  But it was, I mean I worked for Safeway here.  Worked for A&P here, and then moved to Atlanta and went straight into an A&P.  And that’s when I worked my way up in Atlanta.  

PL: [00:50:35] And tell us about your other time in Atlanta besides your work time.  What did you do down there?

RK: [00:50:42] Well you know, I did various jobs.  I mean I took my wife with me.  I got married in Atlanta, I took my girlfriend with me.  And she was from Staunton, Virginia and I took her to, I say, “Hey, you want to go to Atlanta?”  She says yes.  And so we went.  [00:51:00] And that’s where life began for us.  

PL: [00:51:05] But you said to me on another occasion that you got to know some of the King family, and you went to Ebenezer Baptist Church and --

RK: [00:51:12] I did.  My whole purpose of going to Atlanta was to get closer to the movement.  Because I was a student demonstrator.  And I wanted to see what those people were doing.  I wanted to meet them.  Martin was already gone.  I met Coretta.  I met Andy.  I met Maynard Jackson.  I met C.T. Vivian.  Did I say Coretta?

PL: [00:51:36] Yes.

RK: [00:51:41] And I don’t know.  I met a lot of people.  And I joined the church.  Ebenezer.  And I sang in the choir there.  And I remember I had gone through a divorce from my wife, and it was a tough time.  [00:52:00] And I took my kids on the days that they were with me, we went to Ebenezer sat three rows from the front, dead center.  Before then I would have been hiding in the very back.  (laughs) You wouldn’t have even knew I was in the building.  You know.  But that just turned my head around.  I was just so hurt.  And I took my kids with me on the Sundays they were with me.

PL: [00:52:28] So that was a bit of a healing thing for you, to be part of that church?

RK: [00:52:31] Yeah, that church brought me back.  It’s not just about the history, it’s a real church.  It’s a real church and still is right today.

PL: [00:52:44] I’ve been in that church. 

RK: [00:52:45] You’ve been there?

PL: [00:52:46] Yeah.  But not for a service.  Just to --

RK: [00:52:48] Oh just to go, the old one?  See I’ve joined the old one and then moved over to the new.  It’s called Heritage and Horizons.  And Warnock was the reverend.  Joseph Roberts had [00:53:00] kind of appointed, or told the church to bring Warnock in to take my place.  And they did.  And the rest is history.  He was the first Black senator from Georgia. 

PL: [00:53:14] But you know, you said you went to Atlanta to be more involved in the movement.  So did you get more involved or?

RK: [00:53:22] Well just me, you know –-

PL: [00:53:23] Just being there.  

RK: [00:53:24] -- raising, I felt that if I brought my children along, they weren’t having babies or murdering people, I was doing my part in bringing the Black race up.  So that was the biggest demonstration I did, for me that I had.  Was to make sure my family was good.  And I raised them, you know, and paid attention to them.  Worked hard to provide for them.  That was my demonstrations.  

PL: [00:53:57] And so what brought you back to Charlottesville then?  After you left [00:54:00] because I remember you said to me earlier, you didn’t just say it now but you did say it earlier, that for you it was good riddance to Charlottesville.  Those were the words you used.

RK: [00:54:10] And I’ll never return.  I won’t come back here.  I’d come back and see my parents.  I love them.  But I’ll never move back here.

PL: [00:54:18] Yeah, and then you did.  (laughs) So what brought you back?

RK: [00:54:21] I said that at many times, I kind of watch myself when I say that now.  

PL: [00:54:25] Okay, so I was asking after you’re saying you didn’t want to ever see Charlottesville again, you came back.  So can you tell us why you came back?

RK: [00:54:33] Well you know, to be honest with you, when I left I didn’t think there was equal opportunity here.  I couldn’t find a decent job.  I was going to be pigeonholed to some of the smaller jobs around here.  And I wanted to get into a bigger metropolitan area where my chances were better.  And I moved to Atlanta to start life in, which was kind of like a Black [00:55:00] mecca even then.  In I’m talking about 1972.  Seventy-three.  And it’s really grown since then.  I saw on Facebook where this lady says, “Black people stop moving here!”  (laughs) We’ve got enough.  So, but it’s --

GEORGE GILLIAM: [00:55:20] Too big to hate?  Too busy to hate?

RK: [00:55:23] Too busy to, Atlanta’s a great town.  I mean, I was just having fun.  I saw that on Facebook and I could understand that.  But you know it’s, Atlanta was a great town.  It just grew to be too much, traffic wise.  And when I came back I was retiring.  I didn’t need the system around here to have to work.  So I did come back.

PL: [00:55:47] That makes a lot of sense.  Did you feel in the interim that Charlottesville had changed any?  Or do you think --

RK: [00:55:56] A lot.  Yes, a lot.  We had just a Black/white society [00:56:00] here, and now it’s multicultural.  I love seeing people from all over the world here.  And it kind of breaks up that, Atlanta’s really a small area.  But the metropolitan Atlanta incorporates a lot of small cities around it.  And the best cities were, that I liked of Atlanta, was Wieuca, West Paces Ferry, Roswell, Sandy Springs, all of those towns reminded me of home.  I really rarely saw in those cities anything really much better than Charlottesville.  And they were the uppity cities in Atlanta.  So they were kind of coming close to it.  They really weren’t as good as Charlottesville.

PL: [00:56:57] In what sense?

RK [00:56:58] It made me realize what a community I came from.  [00:57:00] That I could live, if you were in Atlanta, I lived in, I didn’t mention Marietta, I lived in Marietta.  Marietta was a very expensive city to live in.  And at the time it was outside, it still is outside the perimeter, it’s considered kind of out.  It’s like up out in the suburbs.  But now it’s really, Atlanta’s got it.  It’s part of it.  It’s grown out past Marietta.  So you know, just seeing Charlottesville and seeing all of the benefits that I had in Marietta.  Oh, it was so expensive to live in Marietta I never bought a home.  I stayed in apartments because it was so expensive to buy a house.  And the salaries aren’t as high here in Virginia or further north, in the south, [00:58:00] neither was living either.  So it kind of, you know, helped each other out there.  The cost of living.  I moved into Marietta because Georgia, I think was number 49 in the nation for education.  At that time.  They still might be somewhere around there.  So I raised my kids in schools, Cobb County schools.  And so they became what I was here in Charlottesville.  Some of the front runners into the school systems.  So I was already familiar with that, and they, you know, just took it and ran with it.  So you know, I recognized that about Marietta and Roswell and Sandy Springs and Wieuca and Buckhead, that they really weren’t any better than Charlottesville.  They just [00:59:00] cost, it took so much to access those places.  Driving and you know, and like I was telling you I can now, I can walk.  I walk to Scott Stadium from here.  I walked to John Paul Jones from here.  It’s very quick.  It’s about a mile and a half, a mile and a quarter to Scott Stadium.  I don’t think it’s about a half mile to John Paul Jones from here.  Because you know, you see that bridge going over 29, it’s a walking bridge, I take that.  And then downtown Atlanta, I mean Charlottesville, it’s just nowhere.  The laundry is, the drycleaners, my dentist at the time was up there where that hotel is on 11th Street and Main.  And so I could walk to all of these places.  

PL: [00:59:50] It’s convenient.  There’s convenience.

RK: [00:59:51] I enjoyed that.  You had to have a car in Atlanta.  You really did.  And here, you can still have a car but you can make a quick errand within [01:00:00] 30 minutes to an hour and be back home if you wanted to be to do your things that you wanted to do.  So that, I saw the benefits of Charlottesville.

PL: [01:00:08] And you said it’s changed a lot because it’s now a multicultural city but you know, Charlottesville has been the last few years through a lot of tension over issues of race.  You know, questions about whether we really are a progressive place or not.  So I guess when I said to you do you feel Charlottesville has changed, that’s sort of been on my mind a little bit.  Do you feel Charlottesville has changed in terms of issues of race?

RK: [01:00:40] I can see where it still has some problems.  You know, now that I’ve been back about seven years.  And I think most of it is at UVA.  It’s where the problems are.  You know, I think it’s that acceptance.  And they’re just now waking up to me.  With things of, you know like [01:01:00] the enslavement, the memorial to the enslave-- it shows they’re just starting to open their eyes.  And you know, my daughter, I mean she left Atlanta and came up here.  She did four years here.  

PL: [01:01:12] Your daughter went to UVA?

RK: [01:01:14] She graduated from UVA and then went on to Ohio State to get her master’s.  Resources living in Cobb County.  (laughs) In the south.  She’s a bright girl.  You know, I gave her the best opportunity I could.

PL: [01:01:27] Did she have a good experience at UVA?  

RK: [01:01:29] Well, yes and no.  We had some death in the family and it was devastating to us.  

PL: [01:01:34] Oh, I’m sorry.

RK: [01:01:36] It was one of her sisters.  

PL: [01:01:37] Oh, so sorry.

RK: [01:01:38] And so the next two years were kind of tough.  In fact, she came off the Grounds and came right here to live in her last year here at UVA.  So, but you know, I think --

PL: [01:01:57] But that’s a personal issue rather than an [01:02:00] institutional one, right?

RK: [01:02:01] That’s exactly right.  So, institutionally I think she did well.  She was close to Rick Turner.  Rick Turner made us all feel at home.  

PL: [01:02:15] All right well I think now we ask other people if they want to add any questions to ones I’ve just had, so just tolerate us a little longer.  (laughs) 

RK: [01:02:26] That’s fine, that’s fine.

PL: [01:02:27] Annie do you want to ask any questions?

AV: [01:02:29] Sure.  Will you tell us a little bit about anything you remember about the spectators when you were playing home games at Lane?  Do you remember like if your family came to watch you, did they feel welcomed?  Do you remember --

RK: [01:02:43] Oh yeah.  

AV: [01:02:44] -- if people in the stands were ever angry or was that more of what you were saying before that the white community sometimes would rally around you because they saw you as representing the school?  What was that like and what was it like, do you remember, for the cheerleaders? [01:03:00] Those first Black cheerleaders coming out on the field to cheer for you.

RK: [01:03:04] I don’t remember the -- who the first Black cheerleaders were.  May have been Scheryl Williams.  

AV: [01:03:09] Yeah she was one of them.

RK: [01:03:10] And Pat Jones.  Which are two both still very good friends.  

PL: [01:03:14] Veronica Jones.  

RK: [01:03:15] Patricia.  

PL: [01:03:16] Oh Patricia, okay.  And Corlis Anderson? 

RK: [01:03:21] Yes.

PL: [01:03:22] Yeah, we’ve interviewed her. 

RK: [01:03:23] You have?

PL: [01:03:24] Yeah, she’s wonderful.  

RK: [01:03:25] Great.  They were great.  And Michelle Taylor, she’s passed.  She was there with them.  But I don’t think there was any issue.  Not really.  My parents came to the game freely.  They were at every game.  When my brother played in ’63 they didn’t want him to come to Danville.  Because it could be some issues, some problems.

PL: [01:03:52] So then he just didn’t go but the rest of the team went?

RK: [01:03:57] Oh he went, he just didn’t want his mother and father in the stands.

PL: [01:03:59] Oh I see. [01:04:00] Right. 

RK: [01:04:01] And so he didn’t invite them to Danville.  Wouldn’t even tell them they were going to Danville.  I used to not like that.  You know, I said, “Why don’t you just tell us?  Come on, we’ll go.”  But he felt that there was going to be an issue, so he didn’t invite them.  

PL: [01:04:18] So he was protecting --

RK: [01:04:20] Yeah, he was protecting his parents.  He would feel more comfortable on the field knowing that his parents were here at home.  Yeah.  Danville’s the only school that I know of, that I can remember.  And we played schools, myself we played some of the same schools.  Danville, Roanoke, and the schools in Richmond.  Same district.  And it was, what was it, what’s the name of that school?

PL: [01:04:52] Douglas Freeman in Richmond?

RK: [01:04:54] Douglas Freeman.  (laughter) 

PL: [01:04:56] How come I knew that? 

RK: [01:04:58] Yeah, that was a little school that had some issues, I thought.  [01:05:00] And then maybe Highland Springs.  But other than that, we were fine.  

PL: [01:05:05] Great.  Any other?

AV: [01:05:07] As a leader in desegregating schools here, did you feel like the community, the white and Black communities, were really separate?  Or when you started to go to school with white students did you feel like sometimes they would ever invite you to do something with them outside of school?  Or even inside of school?  Did you ever have any friendships or did you feel like it was always separate?

RK: [01:05:29] Never.  It was always the Black kids went home with the Black kids and white kids went home with the white kids.  Never looked for that.  Yup.  

PL: [01:05:41] George?

GG: [01:05:42] I pass.  Believe I’m covered.

PL: [01:05:43] You pass, but Lorenzo always has questions so we’ll ask Lorenzo what he’d like to add to this.

LORENZO DICKERSON: [01:05:50] I have a few.  I was curious, how did your parents prepare you to go to Venable?

RK: [01:05:58] I was just going to school.  There was no [01:06:00] preparation that I remember.  Made sure I was clean, ironed out.  I looked good, you know.  So if I remember correctly those early years, she took a job in the cafeteria.  And I think she did that to keep an eye on me.

PL: [01:06:21] At Venable?  The cafeteria at Venable?

RK: [01:06:22] At Venable.  To make herself known to the people at Venable.  I think there was something to do with that.  

LD: [01:06:33] And I was curious about the Turkey Bowl.  Because I’m assuming you all didn’t have pads, because it wasn’t organized --

RK: [01:06:39] We did have pads.  

LD: [01:06:40] You had pads?  Okay.  

RK: [01:06:41] Somebody had a Burley helmet, an old Burley helmet with Burley pads.  Big wide shoulders on these little guys.  (laughter) But I would always order what I wanted through Sears catalog.  And I’d circle, “Dad I want this.”  And it was a Baltimore Colts [01:07:00] uniform.  Complete uniform.  You know, the whole pants, white pants with the striped sides and the pads that you shove in the inside of them.  Shoulder pads and helmet.  But Kent teases me, one day we was coming off the field he says, “Robert did you bring your pads?”  I say, “I got them on.”  (laughs) It was so little it looked like there was no pads there.  But they did some help, you know.  But it was just that stuff you, trinket stuff you get off from Sears catalog.  So yeah, we had helmets.  It’s all whatever you could find.

LD: [01:07:37] Okay, so you all played tackle.

RK: [01:07:40] We played tackle.  Yeah.  That’s what made us so rough to be ready for Lane.  We played tackle, yeah.  (laughs)

LD: [01:07:49] And growing up did you aspire to go to Burley?  To play to Burley, knowing the, you know, folks in the neighborhood and what not?

RK: [01:07:58] Well not necessarily.  [01:08:00] You know, I was looking at those practice fields when my brother was playing at Lane.  I would go down there and see him, look through the fence.  And also I was at that state championship game.  What I wanted to do was go to Lane.  And show our might at Lane, you know.  And that’s what I did.  That’s what I was in line for.  But I was also wanting to do that, because of my brother probably.  

LD: [01:08:35] And what do you remember about Vinegar Hill?  You all go to Inge’s, did you go to the stores?

RK: [01:08:42] Mr. Inge was a member of First Baptist.  I mean, First Baptist was the catalyst.  It was like capital of Charlottesville, of Black Charlottesville.  First Baptist was.  And so Mr. Inge, Mrs. Inge went to, his father went to First Baptist.  I think I [01:09:00] was old enough to remember him.  When he passed they took it over.  And you know, I went to the Radio Barber Shop on Vinegar Hill.  The two main barbers lived in the house on the corner here, the      Henrys     .  And      Skinny      Henry and      Frank      Henry were the two main barbers down there.  So Daddy would take me in to there.  And he also went to Jokers, which is still down there.  Then when I got old enough to ride my bike I’d go down to Jokers and let Mr. Payne cut my hair.  Because he would joke a lot.  

LD: [01:09:45] That’s Marsha Payne’s father?

RK: [01:09:46] Father.  And Jim Payne, who still lives in Charlottesville, his son.  But Mr. Payne, big huge hands, he’d stick his hand on your head, [01:10:00] “Little prince!  When you going to become a king?”  (laughter) That type of thing, you know.  That’s what you expect from him.  But he’d always get this bowl cut, you know, sharp close hair.  Kids are doing it today but back then people kind of laughed at it.  Just that line right here, it was cut down here but still up there.  (laughter) So, but he was a good guy.  And then, I remember one thing I like, I remember about it, is that there was an open sewer going through the community of Vinegar Hill.  And my mother would says, “Robert, don’t go in that creek going over when you go downtown.”  And you know a kid.  I’d go plow right through it.  Splash, splash.  (laughs) You know, and you’d climb up the hill to get to the other side to go through that community on my way downtown.  I never spent much time in Vinegar Hill.  [01:11:00] It was kind of a tough community.  

PL: [01:11:03] Tough in what way?

RK: [01:11:05] You know, it was a lot of good things about Vinegar Hill but there were some pretty run-down homes.  There was a church there which was awesome.  But you just never know what you could run into as a kid.  And I think my parents were trying to shield me from that.  And so I didn’t really hang out in Vinegar Hill but I just would see it.  When was it torn down?

LD: [01:11:30] Sixty-four, ’65. 

RK: [01:11:32] Yeah, so I was pretty young.  I wasn’t really out too much by myself in ’64.  

PL: [01:11:38] You would have been 13? 

RK: [01:11:40] Yeah.  And places I went was to Washington Park.  Everything was right there for me.  My life was right there.  That’s what I tell people.  I was raised there.  I was really raised over there.  But when it comes to my good time and the people that I know, it came from Washington Park.  

LD: [01:11:58] I find it’s interesting how you said the [01:12:00] first time you went to Lee Park, you said 2015?  

RK: [01:12:03] Yup.

LD: [01:12:04] It’s just interesting to me, that passed down understanding.  Like me myself, growing up in the ’80s and ’90s here, I never went to Lee Park until a few years ago.  But didn’t even know why.  But we always went to Washington Park.  Always.  Always there.

RK: [01:12:24] Did you go to McIntire Park very much? 

LD: [01:12:27] Not really, not unless it was like the carnival.  We would go there for that.  But I went to, a preschool was Zion Union.  So, with Reverend Hales.  So we would go to Washington Park all the time.  

RK: [01:12:42] Yes that’s right.  That was the whole community was there.  We’d be out there sleigh riding.  They still sleigh ride on that hill.  And that was a huge thing.  The kids, my sister and all her friends who were all girly people, and they would put a tire and put one of those grills, they had grills made [01:13:00] of rock, and just burn a tire and then sleigh ride until 11 o’clock, 12 o’clock at night.  (laughter) It was a lot of fun.  I still have my rail sleigh in the attic.  (laughter)

PL: [01:13:14] We just recently gave ours away.  (laughs)

RK: [01:13:15] Did you?  (laughter) 

PL: [01:13:16] Yeah.  (laughs)

RK: [01:13:17] Yeah, I’ll never get rid of it.  My daughter will have to pull it out of here.  (laughter) 

LD: [01:13:21] Only have one last question, I was curious if you could tell us about the Hospital Boys.  If you could tell us about what that was?

RK: [01:13:30] Yeah.  Not a lot of people know about the Hospital Boys Club.  And they had a club.  You know, have you ever noticed that building on 12th Street on the corner of 12th and Grady right here?  There’s a little, like a little small church?  They used to own that building.  And that’s where they had their meetings.  And it was really a nice, I don’t know if I could find a copy of it right now.  I think you may have taken a picture of it.  I don’t know if you still have it or not but I’ve got a, it’s [01:14:00] who’s who in Charlottesville, Black Charlottesville.  And almost everybody in Charlottesville worked for UVA in some capacity.  And so they formed the Hospital Boys Club.  I believe it was more of a Black union.  Undercover.  Because they would come in and discuss, I think they would discuss their problems and how to iron them out.  Kind of put their heads together.  Most of them were orderlies.  Pigeonholed to one job, pretty much.  Some sort of orderly.  And you know, it was a great group.  My grandfather was a head of them at one time.  He’s dead center in a photo.  And my father was like two guys down.  An uncle was behind my grandfather in the back row.  So [01:15:00] it was a family thing, you know.  And they were all Hospital Boys.  And that’s what, that was called the Hospital Boys Club.  But you never hear anything.  Nobody shares any pictures, don’t talk about it.  And I don’t have my father to say, “Dad, was that a union?”  You know?  (laughs) So I’m just, I assume I think that’s what it was.  For them to have dues, to buy a house.  You should see them when they’re dressed all in white slacks, and dark blazers.  It’s not color so it could be blue, could be black.  It was sharp.  They were representing.  And so, I think it was probably a union.

PL: [01:15:49] You have pictures of this group, yes?

RK: [01:15:52] You give me a minute I might be able to find one.  Want to do it? 

LD: [01:15:56] Yeah, sure.

RK: [01:15:57] I got an old chest down in the basement, I’ll see if it’s sitting up right on top.  [01:16:00] All right, be right back.  No, didn’t see it.  

PL: [01:16:07] Okay.

RK: [01:16:08] But that’ll have to be something I go up in the attic, it’s probably where it is.  It’s up in the attic.  And that’s a whole different monster.  (laughter) 

PL: [01:16:17] So I didn’t know about the Hospital Boys either until this just came up.  And I’m thinking, this is another conversation, but you know, I think the Historical Society would love to have copies of images that you have of that.  Or if you ever were ready to donate some of that stuff.  

RK: [01:16:37] Of course, yeah.  I mean I can even take a picture of it, yeah.

PL: [01:16:38] I think the Historical Society would love to have that as part of our local record.  Because, you know, it’s not commonly known.  Great.

RK: [01:16:47] Yeah, that’s right.  Most of those guys are dead now.  Not most, all of them are.  Yeah, but their children are here.  

PL: [01:16:56] Right, exactly.

GG: [01:16:57] The children would love to know about it.  

RK: [01:16:58] Yeah.  They might know, [01:17:00] they probably know, just nobody’s bothered to mention it.  Talk about it.  But they were awesome to me.  

PL: [01:17:07] Well thank you very much for all your time.

RK: [01:17:09] Enjoyed it.

PL: [01:17:10] And for being part of this larger project.

RK: [01:17:13] Yes.

 

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