Steve Helvin

GG: [00:00:02] Tell me your name, please.

SH: [00:00:03] My name is Steve Helvin -- H-E-L-V as in Virginia I-N.

GG: [00:00:07] Okay, and what is your date of birth.

SH: [00:00:14] Seven twenty-four, nineteen forty-three.

GG: [00:00:21] Two days away from mine -- July 26.

SH: [00:00:24] Twenty-six! Well, George, I tell you, you could fool people. Everybody -- nobody would believe you were that young.

(laughter).

GG: [00:00:33] And how long have you lived in Charlottesville?

SH: [00:00:37] All my life. I was born at Martha Jefferson.

GG: [00:00:44] And can you go through -- and just so I can understand -- your education journey. Where did you start and, to the extent you remember, what years did you attend each of these schools? [00:01:00]

SH: [00:01:03] When I started elementary school I was at Venable School in the city. And I went to Johnson School a little later. And then I went to Lane High School until my junior year -- I went to Rock Hill which was a segregated high school. Went to Hampden-Sydney College in Prince Edward. I went to Virginia Law School -- I mean, Richmond Law School -- and I taught at Virginia later.

GG: [00:01:34] So you were at Lane High School from (coughs) excuse me -- the fall of 1957 through the spring of 1958.

SH: [00:01:45] Yeah, something like that, yeah.

GG: [00:01:46] And then --

SH: [00:01:47] I’m not good on dates, I’m sorry.

GG: [00:01:50] In 1958 - ‘59 -- your tenth grade year -- I believe you were among those who went to the [00:02:00] basement schools instead of --

SH: [00:02:02] We did -- and church schools -- basement church schools.

GG: [00:02:05] And you had played varsity football in ninth grade --

SH: [00:02:11] Right, I did.

GG: [00:02:13] -- but in the tenth grade, Lane was technically closed.

SH: [00:02:18] Yeah they closed -- we couldn’t use any of the school facilities. We still played football, Lane did, but we couldn’t use the Lane stadium. So all our games were away.

GG: [00:02:34] And did you take team buses or how did you --

SH: [00:02:37] Yeah we would go to Richmond every Friday night and lose and come back. (laughs) And I think the only thing close to a home game is Albemarle, for some reason, had not -- you could use the facility -- the athletic facility. And we did play Albemarle -- that’s as close to home as we ever got.

(adjusting microphone)

SH: [00:02:59] (whispers) Excuse me -- I didn’t realize I had that.

GG: [00:03:00] So then in 1959 and 1960 --

SH: [00:03:05] Sixty [1960] I went to Rock Hill.

GG: [00:03:06] -- went to Rock Hill and you went to Rock Hill in ‘60 - ‘61.

SH: [00:03:11] College, Hampden-Sydney.

GG: [00:03:13] And then Hampden-Sydney, ‘61 to ‘65.

SH: [00:03:17] Right, and then law school ‘68 and then practiced here -- I did some -- other things but -- not important.

GG: [00:03:26] And you were -- played football at each level?

SH: [00:03:30] Yes, uh-huh. I went to college on a football scholarship and that’s -- only the -- really at that time is -- my brother and I both did and it was the only way that we were going to go to college. We were -- my dad had died at 44 and we were really in trouble and we felt we maybe should go and work and not go to college for -- you know, worried about my mother. But it turned out fine.

GG: [00:03:56] What did your father do?

SH: [00:03:58] He was a lawyer and became [00:04:00] a law editor. He was a wonderful man but he had a terrible experience with the Second World War -- he was in the 101st Airborne and jumped in D-Day and all that stuff. Wounded a couple of times. And he drank himself to death at 44. So I knew him but he was not around a lot. He wrote a book on Virginia evidence, so, which --

GG: [00:04:25] Really?

SH: [00:04:26] -- we still use. (laughs) Or, some of us still use. (pause) But saying that, we didn’t have a hard life, I mean, it wasn’t -- it was just different. Maybe not different from a lot of people.

GG: [00:04:45] And what did your mother do?

SH: [00:04:48] My mother couldn’t even type when my dad died (laughs) and she taught herself to type and became a court reporter -- for the (inaudible) [00:05:00] Charlottesville Circuit Court.

GG: [00:05:06] And how many siblings did you have?

SH: [00:05:09] Just one brother.

GG: [00:05:13] And his name was?

SH: [00:05:14] James B. Helvin, Jr.

GG: [00:05:24] Did you all discuss politics in your family?

SH: [00:05:30] You know, my dad was in politics, but politics in Virginia -- we were not -- my brother and I weren’t. But politics and -- it was only really the Democratic party in Virginia and it represented both the left and right wing (laughs) -- but the Democratic party, literally, when they had their primaries that was the elections. (laughs) That’s all I remember about it -- I never, you know -- we didn’t care about politics, [00:06:00] we cared about football, and dating, and they closed the gymnasium so we couldn’t have dances there so we’d go to homes and go at night and kick off -- sock hops, they called them. And they’d put on records -- that was our entertainment. (laughs) That’s what we cared about -- we didn’t -- I just wanted to get through school and go to college.

GG: [00:06:23] Were you aware of Burley High School?

SH: [00:06:27] Surely. Burley High School had just this wonderful football team. Some of them went to the pros and were all-pro and they were just -- they had such spirit. We’d go to their games. We were allowed to sit (laughs) on the visitors side but we rooted for Burley. It’s quite a history there and there’s a local guy that’s a detective named Donald Byers who knows all about [00:07:00] the Burley Bears. And I was invited to their banquet here a couple of years ago and it’s a wonderful history. And Donald Byers is just absolutely got it down and that’s -- oh it’s just -- that was a hell of a team, excuse me, pardon my language. But that was a wonderful -- but we never had anything socially to do with each other. You know, we really loved and rooted for Burley and they rooted for us. But we -- there was no social interaction at all.

GG: [00:07:42] So what was your understanding of the reason for two high schools?

SH: [00:07:50] Well it was -- that was the way it was in Virginia and that’s the problem. The mindset was this is the way it was and that’s the way it is [00:08:00] and you just -- you know, you didn’t worry about it. I mean, it’s horrible to say these things because it sounds so insensitive now but it truly was insensitive -- but we didn’t realize it then. And we -- occasionally we would have pickup games and Black and White kids would play together at sandlot. But we never socially did anything. And nobody gave it a second thought -- the Whites, at least. I’m sure the Black students in those days were terribly hurt but we didn’t sense it.

GG: [00:08:40] So were you aware of the Brown v. Board of Education --

SH: [00:08:45] Oh, yeah.

GG: [00:08:46] -- litigation as it sort of unfolded?

SH: [00:08:48] Well, you know George, that’s a -- I’ve studied it since and I don’t know how aware I was -- I knew it’d been decided and I knew “all deliberate speed” -- I knew [00:09:00] what the deliberation would be in Virginia. (laughs) They would be deliberately slow. And it was -- so we never -- and the governor closed the schools and, you know, it was just -- I don’t know, it was just sort of like a political fight and we weren’t going to have any real say in it and we just -- this is horrible. I mean, I don’t say this as an excuse -- we just sort of went with the flow. Everybody was happy.

GG: [00:09:36] Were you aware -- did you pay any attention to what was going on in Prince Edward County?

SH: [00:09:43] Yeah, I did -- I had no sense of that when I was at Charlottesville. When we went to the church schools and the basement schools and all that, the schools were still integrated [sic-segregated] [00:10:00] When I went to Rock Hill, the Black schools were open, the integrated school was open -- not very much integrated, but integrated -- and Rock Hill was -- so everybody had a choice and nobody seemed to, you know -- there was no -- the tension wasn’t there. Maybe it should have been, but it wasn’t there. And it was only when I got to college that I started seeing just how ridiculous it was. In Prince Edward County there was a drive-in theater. In Charlottesville, you know, you had a balcony -- the Blacks had to sit balcony, had a separate door going in the Paramount. And it just -- but anyway -- in Prince Edward County, they had a drive-in theater. You’d go in a car and watch a movie. They had a line drawn down the middle of the lot -- White, Colored. Sitting in a car. (laughs) That was the most ridiculous thing I ever -- and then [00:11:00] all of the schools were opened -- some of the schools there -- Prince Edward had an academy. But they’d come to Hampden-Sydney to tutoring for college boards because they didn’t have -- the Black students. They felt safe there -- it was college and it was -- wouldn’t call it liberal college but it was progressive college. And we would tutor and it was just amazing -- they had difficulty reading but they were so bright that within a year or two they were getting into almost any college. But they did it to be tutored -- you just -- in those days you just -- college boards were everything to get into college. But anyway -- and I got going -- what’s going on here and then when I finished law school and got here I really realized what was going on.

PHYLLIS LEFFLER: [00:11:57] Could I (inaudible)? When you talked about [00:12:00] students from Prince Edward County coming and tutoring -- that would have been because their schools were closed and (inaudible)?

SH:  [00:12:08] No they had some -- [The Carter G.] Woodson [Institute] was open, you know, I can’t remember what year. They came mainly for reading and I thought it was -- I thought Woodson was still open -- that’s Carter, you know --

PL: [00:12:22] Carter G. Woodson.

SH: [00:12:24] But it may not have been. But the reason they came to us is they needed to get more proficient for the English section of college boards. And the reason I tutored was not because I had any great ability, it was because I played football and the scholarship (laughs) required me to -- and so I did it. But I enjoyed -- they were way beyond me. I mean, I would have to get one of my professors to talk to them after a while. (laughs) They were very good students.

GG: [00:13:00] So in 1959 somebody in your family made the decision that you would go to Rock Hill Academy.

SH: [00:13:13] Yeah I, you know -- my problem with that -- I’m sure my father had a lot to do with it. I don’t know whether my father was around then and my mother -- not unusual, I don’t like to say that -- you know, our parents made a decision we’d go there. I don’t know who or how but we didn’t care, we’re just going to play football and everybody was happy. Nobody was upset and we just -- the insensitivity is just hard to imagine now. I understand it now but I didn’t then and I should have. But it was fine, everybody was fine, and we were still [00:14:00] friends with the two high schools -- as a matter of fact, the girl I dated back then went to Lane and I went to -- we just had no problem, there was no problem with any of that.

GG: [00:14:11] Did you ever go to the home of one of your Black friends?

SH: [00:14:17] Yeah I did, but that was because we were very poor and, yeah, uh-huh -- and Frances, when she taught here, had to do home visitations and she went to a lot of -- and she would come -- we didn’t go to a lot, though. I mean, I went to some that we played -- you know, we’d go have lunch there after playing touch football or whatever, you know? Not much contact, though.

PL: [00:14:49] Do you have any idea who financed your school years at Rock Hill because, you know, those were private schools there (inaudible)?

SH: [00:14:55] There was a thing called a tuition grant. Now I don’t understand [00:15:00] all the workings of it, but it was like the thing they’re talking about, you know, private school -- the grants to fund private school. They got a grant from the state and there was -- I’m sure there were a lot of donations. I mean, it was --

PL: [00:15:21] But you don’t think your parents paid for you to go there? (inaudible).

SH: [00:15:25] My parents couldn’t have paid.

PL: [00:15:26] Uh-huh. That’s what I was (inaudible).

SH: [00:15:28] No, no, no -- there was no way. We -- no, I mean --

GG: [00:15:37] Did you -- by the time you landed at Hampden-Sydney, had you played on the same field in any organized game with Black kids?

SH: [00:15:49] I never played against a Black athlete on high school or college level until I got to Hampden-Sydney. And John Hopkins had [00:16:00] an end -- very good ball player -- who was Black and nobody cared. We weren’t Penn State or Notre Dame but we had, you know -- we played Davidson and Washington and Lee -- schools like that. And there were people that were upset when Hopkins came and we’re going, “Are you kidding me?” You know, nobody cared about -- but that’s -- no, there wasn’t -- I never played with -- when I was in law school I played rugby just to do something -- until the dean told me he was going to throw me out if I got my leg broken. But there were kids from MCV that we played with each other and there were a lot of Black students from South Africa and we played together. It just -- it was just fine (laughs) once we did it. But yeah, [00:17:00] I mean, there was no problem -- we had no problem. We didn’t win a lot but we had no problem. But other than that, I don’t know -- athletic contact with (inaudible).

GG: [00:17:10] And as far as you know -- now I understand you were sort of away from the immediate scene. But from what you knew, did Lane try to do anything to prepare students for the inevitability of the demand that schools be desegregated?

SH: [00:17:34] I wish I could remember the names of these people because they deserve quite a bit of credit. I didn’t pay much attention to it. There was a guy named Tom Michie who was a federal judge here who started to push towards integrating the schools. And along with that -- because Charlottesville -- was so wonderful a place to live in because there’s so many people -- like you [00:18:00] who are academics that choose this place to live in -- they were pretty prepared. And there was no uproar because what could you complain about? That was the thing that we all (adjusting microphone) -- I’m sorry about your microphone -- that was the thing that we all needed to know. If you didn’t like what’s happening, you could go to any school you wanted -- just choose and shut up -- go! That was the way (laughs) it was more or less put to us. It was -- there’s no reason to be upset. Of course, there was but we were oblivious.

GG: [00:18:45] So on January 19 of 1959 that’s when Massive Resistance package of laws was declared to be unconstitutional.

SH: [00:18:56] Right.

GG: [00:18:57] And an agreement was made shortly thereafter [00:19:00] between the district judge and the plaintiffs that they would complete the 1959 spring semester segregated but they would start to desegregate with the fall of 1959. And you would have been at Rock Hill --

SH: [00:19:24] Yes.

GG: [00:19:25] -- for that year. Did you all have any -- did you have good friends at Lane who told you what was going to happen?

SH: [00:19:37] No, we -- this is so bad, I’m not trying to justify -- I’m just trying to tell you what was happening. We were just kind of oblivious to the thing because everybody -- it didn’t seem to be an issue. The Burley kids were happy, we were happy, I never even thought about race. I mean, I just [00:20:00] didn’t. And Charlottesville was happy although the kids that went there -- probably great kids but there weren’t many -- there wasn’t anything impactful happening across the board to make people, you know -- we didn’t talk about it even. That’s the way it was. At least with me -- that’s my --

GG: [00:20:28] So did any of the --

SH: [00:20:29] -- vision.

GG: [00:20:31] -- did any of the Black boys who entered Lane in the fall of 1959 -- that first opportunity -- the first wave -- did any of them play football?

SH: [00:20:45] Yeah there was a guy -- I don’t know any of the -- if he -- they had some -- Kent Merritt was a great football player. And, yeah, I’m sure more than that -- I just don’t know because I wasn’t a teammate with them. [00:21:00] But there were, I mean, I think eventually -- once you get numbers then the problem goes away. Once people start interacting with everybody there’s no problem. Well, there’s problems, but not the problems that we’re addressing. But there weren’t numbers and we were kind of in a la-la land where we felt like, okay, we’ve done what -- everybody should be happy and the truth is everybody was happy except we had the same horrible prejudice in our community. But we didn’t know it, you know, we didn’t act like we knew it.

GG: [00:21:57] Would it surprise you to know that in 1959 [00:22:00] there were some of those kids that wanted to play football but the administration would not let them?

SH: [00:22:07] At Lane?

GG: [00:22:08] At Lane.

SH: [00:22:09] Well that’s stupid. They could have played for Rock Hill. (laughs) I mean, they -- ah, that’s stupid. Because in those days if you were poor -- Black or White -- to us, I mean, this is very (inaudible) -- but football was your ticket out. I mean, we couldn’t -- my brother and I wouldn’t have gone to college without a football scholarship. And you had, I mean, it was -- and with a Black kid, that was really a ticket out.

PL: [00:22:41] You don’t know for sure why they were not allowed to play. There seems to have been in the process of transfer from one group to another there, and we’re still trying to research this, there may have been some requirement that you have a year of ineligibility. But in any case, [00:23:00] the coach at Lane wanted to bring some Black kids onto the team --

SH: [00:23:07] Was that Tommy Theodose?

PL: [00:23:09] Yeah.

SH: [00:23:10] Oh, Tommy Theodose was not in my view -- you know, I don’t know because I don’t speak -- well I -- he coached me when I was at Lane and he was not a racist in my view.

PL: [00:23:23] Well, that’s everyone’s (inaudible).

SH: [00:23:27] The coaches before him might have had some tendency to be -- but no coach in his right mind would not want a talented football player, Black or White, not to come out for his --

PL: [00:23:37] Well, Theodose did want those Black kids on the team and he was told by the administration (inaudible).

SH: [00:23:43] I’m not surprised at that. I don’t think it was the coaches, let’s put it that way. Theodose replaced a guy named Ralph Mann whose son’s a lawyer here and he -- when I was there, Ralph [00:24:00] -- it was just a very hard time playing away and doing all that -- Ralph got fired but Tommy Theodose was -- he grew up in the Greek community here. He was a fine man -- in my view, you know -- you know, you’re --

PL: [00:24:16] No, no, I -- that’s what we’re hearing across the board -- that Tommy Theodose was --

SH: [00:24:20] Yeah, he was a good man. And certainly he’d want good players. We were not -- I mean, we would go and lose every game in Richmond. That was when we had to play every game away and we kept losing players because players wouldn’t put up with that. We needed anybody that could play. Anybody that could put on a -- football gear, with the front side in front of them and not the backside. Anybody could play anything that we wanted and we’d get on the bus and go to Richmond and lose to the big Richmond high schools and come back. And people quit. And the Daily Progress [00:25:00] called us the Lane Lonesome 11. (laughs)

PL: [00:25:03] And why did they quit?

SH: Because it was just so hard, you go out and practice -- you can’t practice on your own field. You get in a bus and you lose and, you know, you just -- you’re making a sacrifice and for what, you know? Anyway, we lost a lot of players and we -- it wasn’t a happy time.

GG: [00:25:29] So looking back, what are your thoughts on the beginning of desegregation. The court-ordered desegregation. Did you -- I mean, it was pretty -- it made quite a bit of noise.

SH: [00:25:50] Oh it made -- I mean, it was -- it continued all through -- when I was all through college it continued. It was just not as overt [00:26:00] but there was resistance -- there’s resistance even today, I can’t believe it. You know, it’s -- but it became more latent, it wasn’t apparent as it was before -- that was the main reason. But people I went to high school with who really were racist are still racist. I mean, that’s -- but when I got to college it really upset me when I saw this and I should have been upset before but I didn’t realize I was a part of the harm. And it was only until I got to practice law that it became so apparent that it was, you know --

GG: [00:26:48] What was it that became apparent?

SH: [00:26:50] How much hurt, you know, I mean -- and you think about, you know -- and I did this one time at a party [00:27:00] where I was talking to Black men my age, I was the only white person there -- and, you know, you wake up in the morning and you go into town and somebody’s going to do something there -- not even consciously -- that’s going to hurt you.

GG: [00:27:22] Like what?

SH: [00:27:23] Oh, you know, call you by your first name, you know, all kinds of things? Just act like you’re not even there. Treat you like you’re a servant. Don’t thank you when you do something decent. You’d be insulted by these small acts and you knew -- I mean, we never sensed -- it’s very hard -- we never sensed the pain all that was causing. We knew it, but we really didn’t want to [00:28:00] look -- maybe, I don’t know. But just -- and I just think about it and say, you know, “This guy’s got this, and then his son’s going to, who did nothing wrong, he’s not disrespect -- doesn’t do anything to bring it about himself -- is going to go to town and somebody’s going to find some way to hurt him -- do you want your son to have that happen?” I mean, it’s just -- it’s just so much harm and we don’t even realize it. We don’t even sense it and it really bothered me. I’d go to court and the judges would call a Black man, 70 years old, by his first name. You know, and I had a law student -- his dad was a doctor in New York and came up poor and had the money to buy his son a Mercedes Benz car -- he was here in law school. And he got stopped like [00:29:00] 10 or 15 times while he was in law school. And it --

GG: [00:29:06] Stopped by?

SH: [00:29:08] Police. He would be stopped for -- everybody because he had a Mercedes and he had a gold chain -- he was Black. He was stopped. I mean, that’s -- and you had to really watch -- anyway, and I was just thought about -- what if I was that father, you know? Came up poor, made medical school, could do this for my son, and it became a negative to him. You know, think about that. I mean, that just -- it just chills me. I mean -- and the police officers were stopping -- they would say not on the basis of race but they were profiling, right? They thought he was a drug dealer. And in their mind they were saying, “Oh, oh well, I’m stopping a drug dealer.” Well no they aren’t. To that person it’s not them that’s the problem -- that causes the problem. [00:30:00] It’s the thing they do to that person driving that car. The harm is there and the harm is not trying to stop drugs, the harm is making that person not enjoy getting on the highway (laughs) and just driving without being stopped. They got to be such a problem I would -- even when they were represented in drug cases, if the attorney wouldn’t ask why they stopped I would because I felt like I had to be comfortable that this was not a pretextual stop -- it was my job not to let that happen. That was probably wrong, it’s probably judicial intrusion. (laughs)

GG: [00:30:43] You served as a judge in Charlottesville.

SH: [00:30:46] Pardon me?

GG: [00:30:47] You served as a judge in Charlottesville.

SH: [00:30:50] I’m sorry, George.

GG: [00:30:52] You served as a judge in the Albemarle County Court. How many years were you listening to cases?

SH: [00:31:00] Oh, well, I still am. (laughs) It’s been 45 years I’ve judged cases. I went on at 36 which was a young age in those days. And I quit, you know, after about 20, 25 years and I still sit -- I get the cases of the senator who does some -- you know, does something wrong, or the mayor who drunk drives, or something -- the judges spread like a covey of quail and the Supreme Court (laughs) sends me down to try them. But it’s the same everywhere.

GG: [00:31:40] Let’s pursue you as judge for a minute. You heard a lot of police court cases.

SH: [00:31:49] Yeah.

GG: [00:31:52] Driving cases.

SH: [00:31:54] Well and then, of course, you had a lot of felonies, too, and --

GG: [00:31:55] Yeah. So you got to know the good [00:32:00] and the bad police officers.

SH: [00:32:04] Oh yeah you could tell. But one thing is that every police officer tried to bring all their cases, if it was traffic, on one day a month. And since I’ve retired I’ve really got a sense of this throughout the state. And that officer -- you knew it was his day because you come in and you look at the courtroom and it’s absolutely not a white face out there. Or if the -- they think they can do that, you know, just come up with any reason. I told somebody it’s not just racism if you have a blonde with big blonde hair but some days you have a courtroom full of them -- but that’s not the law, the law doesn’t allow, you know, pretextual stops. They have a (inaudible) [00:33:00] suspicion of crime. And even when I was going all over the state, *I went down on the fifth of July years ago -- Frances went with me -- to try a judge’s son in Portsmouth. And I got -- I forgot what he had -- some drug case or something. And all the judges, of course, went -- and I got in the courtroom and they said, “Do you mind doing a bond here?” You know, I’m supposed to try this. I said, “Not at all.” And they bring in this Black guy and it’s like Monday morning and the fourth of July was like on Saturday, I think, or something -- on Friday, you know -- oh, no, Saturday. And this guy had been picked up Friday. He worked construction. He was my age. Seventy-one [00:34:00] or something back then. And his wife was a nurse and she would pick him up. Well it was like 100 and whatever -- Frances and I -- it was horribly hot. And he went up and got in the shade of a tree waiting for his wife to pick him up next to a fancy restaurant in Portsmouth. And an officer came and said, “You got to move.” And the guy (laughs) he said, “I don’t feel I have to move, I’m just hot and I’m waiting for my wife.” They ran him in. He, because it was the Fourth of July -- his wife couldn’t find out where he was. She called the magistrate’s office later -- that’s why he told her -- and they didn’t have anybody there because it was Fourth of July -- everybody was -- Frances and I were -- we were there getting ready for this case [00:35:00] on Monday, you know? Riding the love boat watching fireworks. This guy’s in jail. And he comes out and I couldn’t believe it. His wife was there in court. And I said, “Well, what’s the charge here.” And the guy said, “Well, why don’t we just try.” And the officer’s here and the Commonwealth Attorney’s there and he said, “You know, we just tried -- it’s not going to be a jailable offense.” I’m going, “Not now, he’s already served.” You know, but I tried it, I dismissed it, it was no -- you know, I mean, I did the right thing. But here’s the problem, George. I’m riding back from Portsmouth and -- I mean, I told the officer I want him released now, I don’t want him to, you know -- and if he’s not released before I leave this morning from jail, you’re going to be trading uniforms with him. [00:36:00] And I meant it. And so I felt really good and then I get about up to Williamsburg and I realize how am I ever going to give that guy back his Fourth of July? He’s my age. And Fourth of July is a big deal for me, I have striped clothes for liberty and just have a good time. How am I going to give you back that? There’s no justice there. How does he get back -- how many more Fourth of July’s does he got? I mean, you know -- you think you do justice and on racial matters you don’t always -- you can’t always do it. And it’s just sad, anyway.

GG: [00:36:46] So in the course of your work you would see in some cases officers who habitually brought questionable stops.

SH: [00:36:58] Yeah.

GG: [00:37:00] What did you do when you saw somebody that you knew in the past had --

SH: [00:37:05] Well you got to be -- I mean, the ethics of being a -- you’ve got to keep yourself out of the case. A judge can’t pre-judge because this officer lied to him once, you can’t pre-judge. On the other hand you got to do justice -- it’s a great -- I’m not sure this is an answer a lot of judges would give you and I’m not even sure -- I don’t think it’s -- it was right to me. But on the other hand, you can’t convince somebody unless you’re convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. And if this person’s lied to you, you’re going to require a lot more evidence before you take somebody’s liberty away. You’re going to have to feel much more comfortable and that’s what you do is -- it’s not the past, but you know he’s capable of [00:38:00] prevaricating and, you know, you have to judge his credibility and you know that. And so the most important thing there is to try to get the right result and the right result is even if they’re guilty, unless it’s an extreme, you know -- even if they’re guilty, it doesn’t hurt to let them go if the officer quits that stuff. Now that’s a terrible thing to say (laughs) I probably should put something over the microphone. But that’s what I believe.

GG: [00:38:36] I have heard you say in conversation that the indignations that Black people suffer is not really the big things but the subtle, little things.

SH: [00:38:53] Oh, sure.

GG: [00:38:54] Could you give some examples of that?

SH: [00:38:56] Well, I was talking about addressing somebody as -- a Black person as (inaudible) -- you know, it’s just so many subtle, little things. [00:39:00] The answer could be better answered by the man doing this interview -- you know, doing the camera. It’s just -- so many subtle little things that hurt with no provocation, with no reason why you should be hurt that way. We don’t -- I really believe I don’t understand all of it and I know I don’t. But I know how -- I feel like I want to understand and I don’t want to do little things that make somebody feel bad for themselves. There are people I have before me -- I don’t care how bad they feel (laughs) because they are just bad people and harmful, malicious, vicious people. But I don’t want them to feel bad because of the color of their skin or because, historically, people have just assumed that’s alright -- they don’t care. [00:40:00] People care when they’re hurt and I know that. But, you know, it’s only so much -- you just do right in what you do.

GG: [00:40:10] So what, again, looking back -- what’s the legacy of the efforts to desegregate?

SH: [00:40:23] I don’t know where it ends, you know? We talked about -- I think about Mildred Loving, you know, and I think about -- this is a woman who married a White man -- she’s a Black woman from Caroline County. They kind of chased her out of the state. Anyway, the appeal went to the Virginia Supreme Court. The law is called miscegenation, which is if you’re White you had to marry another White person. [00:41:00] I always thought it was unconstitutional because that means if you’re white it was prejudice against the White because I could only marry another White -- I couldn’t marry a Black or an Asian. But if you’re Black you could marry a Black or Asian. So I felt like, oh hell -- but anyway, it was unconstitutional, quite clearly. And a case went to the Supreme Court called Loving versus Virginia and that is just a wonderful name for a case. And Frances -- I was in law school and Frances and I wanted to get married. The Loving case was decided in ‘67 and I was interviewing law school prior to the Loving case and I wasn’t -- I couldn’t practice in Virginia, I knew -- not because they prosecuted this, they didn’t prosecute much. But if you graduate from law school the law was a felony -- it was a felony [00:42:00] in the State of Virginia for Frances and I -- now 54 years married -- to get married. And so, you know -- but the Loving case came around and we actually went on the steps of the Supreme Court, Frances and I -- and anyway, we got married and so that was -- Frances and I looked at it this morning. We’d been married 40 years and we’re getting ready to do something for the anniversary. And after 40 years, you’re not but so original. So I said, “You know what I want to do?” And Frances wanted to, too -- “Let’s call Ms. Loving and thank her.” And so we did. We called her and it was such a bitter-sweet thing. She was so gracious -- this is -- oh, she died I think, what --

Frances Helvin: [00:42:51] Two thousand and --

SH: [00:42:54] But I said, you know, we’ve been married 40 years, Frances and I -- instead of us going out and having dinner [00:43:00] and me buying her some kind of thing she really doesn’t like, we’d like to send you to dinner and send you flowers, you know, just because you -- and, oh God, it was like -- she was just so gracious to us and so sweet. And towards the end of the phone call I said, “Well, Ms. Loving, tell me your address and everything so I can send the flowers and the restaurant thing to you.” And there’s a long pause and she didn’t give me her address. I, after all these years, trying to think of -- tried to do right -- didn’t realize she’s still afraid, after all these years. It didn’t dawn on me. I mean, here I am -- I should be much more sensitive to that. She was still afraid after all those years. And it finally [00:44:00] dawned on me, I mean, I can -- part of it might be blamed to racism but a lot of it could be blamed to stupidity. But anyway, I just didn’t pick up -- and I picked up and I apologized to her and I said, “You just tell me what restaurant and I’ll have everything there.” And she gave me her address and I -- and we talked several more times, she was so gracious. But here it is, 40 years, (laughs) you know -- and I’m still not realizing what I should -- if you’re Black, you know it. You know that this lady could still be a little afraid.

PL: [00:44:45] Did she accept your invitation? Did she go get dinner?

SH: [00:44:48] Oh yeah, I mean -- I guess, I mean, I made the reservation. I never heard back from them and we sent flowers to the (inaudible) -- I forgot.

FH: [00:44:58] Yes, I think you did.

SH: [00:45:00] Yeah. Anyway, it was --

PL: [00:45:02] It’s a very poignant story, I’m really glad you shared it.

SH: [00:45:05] Well, I haven’t shared -- George, I have great respect for George. And he’s a fair man, a good man -- he’s a good lawyer, he’s a good man. And I didn’t want to share it too often -- she’s dead now -- during her life because that was -- the end -- that was (inaudible) private with her. And when the movie came out and everybody said, “Oh, you got to go to the movie.” And I said -- and I told some friends about the story and they wanted me to -- and I said, “Oh no, I’m not going to share it publicly as long as she” -- but it’s fine. It just shows you. You probably know this, don’t you, a little bit? I mean, stuff that people [00:46:00] just -- they don’t mean to be thoughtless, they just are. But the problem is you don’t have a right for your thoughtlessness to hurt somebody. That’s the problem. I’m sorry, that’s it.

PL: [00:46:16] Yeah, I wanted to ask, you know, you talked about your high school years and going to Rock Hill, and nobody thought about these issues, and everybody was fine, and everybody was happy.

SH: [00:46:30] I shouldn’t say nobody. We didn’t.

PL: [00:46:32] Okay, I understand. And then it seems like there was some kind of trigger that allowed you to become more aware of the implications of racism in college. So what were those -- what caused that change in you because clearly, you know, something happened for you. Was it doing the tutoring (inaudible)?

SH: [00:46:57] Yeah, no, I thought about that before because [00:47:00] it was -- you know, I didn’t feel like I was intentionally racist, okay? But I certainly was. But college at a liberal arts college -- and my college I love. Now George is at a great university. But the college there was a very, very old college and it was sort of liberal in those days. I mean, Bobby Kennedy came there and we had all kinds of -- and it was the interaction with all these kids, you know? It was liberal arts and you grew to think much wider than yourself. And I was -- didn’t have a good education. So I wanted to -- I really worked hard to try to study and I’d listen to all of this stuff and it was just wonderful stuff. And I still -- I just love the school to death, it’s just totally liberal arts, it was totally [00:48:00] free thinking, and you had discussions and I realized -- well I hadn’t even thought about that.

PL: [00:48:11] Thank you for supporting the liberal arts. (laughs)

SH: [00:48:13] Oh, I love it -- I’m worried about it now because I don’t think we’re having as much honest discourse as we should have. You know, people got to admit what they don’t know and be able to discuss it and argue it. But you got to stick with and argue it before somebody -- so somebody can tell you why you’re wrong, that’s what -- anyway --

PL: [00:48:39] And what are your feelings about where we are as a society in terms of race relations today?

SH: [00:48:50] I came up with -- *you know, I don’t mean this -- I loved her very much -- my mother was from a very racist family and very racist. [00:49:00] And it affected Frances and I and our son. And it was so racist that my view of how far we’ve come is not a very -- one with great perspective -- because we don’t have to come very far to come light years (laughs) away from the -- that type of racism. Whole family. My brother went to university -- he came away the same way I did, he was a principal out at Jack Jouett. And he was in the Army -- I think the Army was his epiphany as a --

PL: [00:49:46] Yeah, mm-hmm.

SH: [00:49:49] I don’t know. I don’t know how well we’ve done. But you’ve got to try and you’ve got, you know -- and you can’t make excuses. (laughs) [00:50:00] And boy, I tell you --

PL: [00:50:02] Can I ask you how you feel about issues of critical race theory. (laughs)

SH: [00:50:07] Pardon me?

PL: [00:50:08] No, I’m just kidding.

SH: [00:50:09] Oh no, I didn’t -- I love history and I love Virginia. And I just love the state -- I mean, look out here. I mean, you can’t live in a better place. You know, with Virginia, you know -- and we wouldn’t have a problem if you left us alone. But after a while it would be good for us to be the (inaudible). He’d say Steve, come on, man -- he realized what you’re saying. And I would say, God, I didn’t even think about that -- and that’s the problem, we don’t think about these things. I’m talking too much.

GG: [00:50:56] Lorenzo has a couple of questions.

SH: [00:50:58] Oh.

LORENZO DICKERSON: [00:50:19] Yeah I just have three [00:51:00] follow-up questions.

SH: [00:51:02] Oh, sure, go ahead.

LD: [00:51:03] Just curious were your parents from the Charlottesville-Albemarle area as well?

SH: [00:51:09] My father was from Louisa County. His father was a blacksmith. He went -- first person to go to college, he went here to law school. My mother was from Texas and my grandfather on her side of the family worked for the railroad. And her side of the family were very racist -- my grandmother on my father’s side got married when she was 16 and was brilliant -- she was a smart woman. And she raised kids, she raised a Native American and a Black kid in Louisa County when he was a blacksmith. So I don’t -- we never talked about race. [00:52:00] We didn’t -- it wasn’t a problem, you know what I mean? You’d hear it if something was on the newspaper or -- but no, it wasn’t a subject anybody brought up. So I’m really not so sure about -- I don’t have any idea about my grandfather the blacksmith. My brother and I both agree he never said a word to either one of us. (laughs) But that’s all. I mean, you know -- but it was typical and it was -- there was -- well, you know -- I mean, there was just a lot of -- and I always felt like it was more talk than action. And then I realized the real problem is not the aggressive talk but the subtle, little things that we do.

LD: [00:52:49] And you mentioned going to Rock Hill and the basement schools. I was just curious what did your parents think about that? I mean, schools were closed. [00:53:00] (inaudible) Massive Resistance -- was it just something that, you know, people did (inaudible)?

SH: [00:53:04] Oh, you just rolled with it. What happened here was they opened the churches and the basement schools and stuff and the -- you had the same teachers. Then you had class, you know, officers and you had that kind of stuff. But that was just the way it was. And then they got prepared -- that gave them a chance to prepare when they opened up nobody had a complaint, they could go wherever they wanted to. I think that helped this community more than it hurt it. In one way it kept the discussion. It hurt us in the concept that we couldn’t take a realistic view of race [00:54:00] that you would have got if you went to Columbia or if you grew up in New York. We didn’t have that. Well, you grew up -- you know what it’s like here.

LD: [00:54:13] And I’m curious because I’ve asked several people over the years this question -- because when we look back at our history of Charlottesville-Albemarle and desegregation -- well, segregation of schools -- we often talk about Black schools and White schools. And I’ve always just been curious when even the numbers population wise would have been a lot more at the time. But if you were LatinX, or Asian, or Indian did you go to -- would you have gone to a white school? Do you know if you remember that (inaudible)?

SH: [00:54:45] Frances was at Madison College and she was the only Asian there in --

FH: [00:54:53] I was the only Asian in any school I went to. It was -- and I was born in the Philippines and I [00:55:00] left when I was five and my father had been killed shortly before I was born. And then my mother -- and there were four of us -- and then my mother remarried -- she remarried an American -- and because we weren’t his natural children we weren’t -- there’s a real process –- a lot of people to get us, you know -- to join them. But we were living on an Army base because he worked for the Army. He wasn’t in the service but he was in the county in the military. And it was right after World War II, right before the Korean War, and it was terrible (laughs) to be an Asian, you know, living and going to school right between these two wars. And then when we left -- or, well, we were living in Alaska then -- [00:56:00] and that was before it was a state. And when we moved to Virginia I was -- I still went -- I was still (inaudible). And even though we were close to D.C. but we were in the suburbs -- there were no Asians in high school. And it was that way when I went to college. I went to Madison. And I don’t think there was an Asian in the whole city (laughs) of Harrisonburg, but I can remember -- again, I was very -- it was uncomfortable going downtown because I would always get stared at, or people, you know -- and growing up as a child, especially boys, you know -- follow me and start acting like they were speaking Chinese or some gobbledygook language and it was hard as a child. And it wasn’t until I -- and even when I came to Charlottesville I still had [00:57:00] it difficult. You know, and I finally realized -- yeah I finally outgrew all that and I’m, you know -- I finally got so that I was comfortable with myself. But growing up I always though, “Why can’t I live like everyone else? Why do I have to stand out like this?”

SH: There was a lot of racism even then, Frances. I remember when I became judge we went to Orange County Bar Association and all the other (laughs) -- Frances said, “I’m not going to that again.”

END OF AUDIO FILE