Tommy Theodose

[Extraneous Material redacted]

GEORGE GILLIAM:     [00:00:11] Okay.  Coach, would you please state your full name?

TOMMYY THEODOSE:    [00:00:17] Thomas George Theodose.

GG:  [00:00:20] I love that name.

TT:  [00:00:21] Do you really?  It’s Greek.  (laughter)

GG:  [00:00:24] Particularly the George part.

TT:  [00:00:26] Okay.

GG:  [00:00:29] You have agreed to cooperate with the Albemarle Charlottesville Historical Association in terms of building a library of oral histories about the ’50s and ’60s in Charlottesville.

TT:  [00:00:48] Well, I...  I’m a what I would call real historian.  I really love history, [00:01:00] and as far as when I was going to school and so on, that was by far my favorite subject.  And it’s...  That’s what I was interested in.

GG:  [00:01:15] Well, the contribution that you’re making is invaluable.  I want to focus primarily, not completely but primarily, on the years that you were the Head Coach at Lane High School in Charlottesville.  When did you become the Head Coach?

TT:  [00:01:38] [Kat?]?

F1:  [00:01:41] I think it was 1959.

TT:  [00:01:43] I don’t remember.  I’m too old.  (laughter)

GG:  [00:01:47] I think the answer then is 1959.

TT:  [00:01:50] Okay.

GG:  [00:01:51] And what...  At the time you took over the Lane High School [00:02:00] football team, was it a good team?  Did it have a positive record at that point?

TT:  [00:02:10] Honestly, just fair.  Not really.  And, no, in fact, it was pretty poor at football at the time, and we were very fortunate:  after a period of years we got a lot better.  You know, because of integration and so on -- I don’t know if that had anything to do with it, because we -- back in those days, everybody integrated, and we all had Black and White players.  And I can remember everybody wanted to win, and I -- well, they all got together, [00:03:00] and as far as discrimination, there wasn’t any.  It was just...  They got along great.

GG:  [00:03:08] I’d like you to (clears throat) sort of shift gears and think a little bit about the University of Virginia’s football teams in the ’50s and ’60s.  Were they thought of as any sort of football powerhouse?  Were they thought of in the same breath as Ohio State or Alabama?

TT:  [00:03:28] Well, what I vaguely remember -- I don’t think Virginia...  They had a few good years, but I don’t think there was any consistency.  And I’m trying to remember...  I’m having a hard time.  Do you remember what kind of seasons Virginia had back in those...?

DS:  [00:03:52] Well, 1968 was the first winning season they’d had in quite a long time, and in the ’50s, of course, they had Dick Voris was the coach.  They were miserable [00:04:00] then, and into the early to mid-’60s they were not very good, either.  Sixty-eight, they had a pretty good team.

TT:  [00:04:09] So overall, they didn’t have a great program.

GG:  [00:04:14] Were many Charlottesville area athletes that you may have coached, were they being recruited by the University of Virginia?

TT:  [00:04:24] I had a few.

PHYLLIS LEFFLER:    [00:04:28] Can we pause for a minute?  I think we need to identify David on the tape.  We haven’t done that yet.  So...

DAVID SLOAN:   [00:04:36] I’m David C. Sloan.  (laughs) Charlottesville native.

GG:  [00:04:41] You were a football player.

DS:  [00:04:43] I was a football player.

GG:  [00:04:45] What period, at what institutions?

DS:  [00:04:47] I played for this man in 1970, ’71, and ’72.  Played at UVA ’73 through ’76.

TT:  [00:04:56] After that he was in jail.  (laughter)

DS:  [00:04:59] Well, I [00:05:00] could actually only get out on weekends to play.

GG:  [00:05:07] So were there any Charlottesville area athletes, except for Mr. Simpson, who were being actively recruited when you coached them?

TT:  [00:05:20] The biggest recruit you had was Gene Arnette.  He was a quarterback that ended up going to Virginia.  And, of course, probably the best athlete we ever had was Mike Cubbage, and he didn’t go to Virginia...  He went into pro baseball, but a great athlete.

GG:  [00:05:53] Now, during your tenure as coach at Lane, [00:06:00] you had teams that were undefeated from 1962 to 1967 --

TT:  [00:06:06] Yeah.

GG:  [00:06:07] -- an incredible streak.  When were the first Black athletes permitted to play on the Lane team that you coached?

TT:  [00:06:19] I don’t remember what year it was, but I remember it going on, and I can remember I took the first Black player before integration who played.  Had some Black athletes.  I took them to see if they could play football, and they turned ’em down.  And then I think the following year we integrated, and I got ’em all out.  And I would say probably because of, you know, everybody...  The bottom line was that you wanted to win football games, and as far as [00:07:00] integration and so on were concerned, it was great.  They got along great.  Because, again, they just wanted to win football games.

GG:  [00:07:09] Now, we’re gonna pursue a little bit that period when you wanted to have Black athletes on the team, but school administrators vetoed them.

TT:  [00:07:22] They what?

GG:  [00:07:22] The school administrators vetoed having Black players on the team.

TT:  [00:07:27] Yeah.

GG:  [00:07:28] Do you remember what year that was that they said no?

TT:  [00:07:31] No, I don’t.  It’s just...  Like I said, I remember taking some of the Black athletes, and the administration turned them down, and I think the following year we went to total integration so everybody was playing, and everybody got along great.

GG:  [00:07:54] Now, tell me about Jackson P. Burley School during those same years, [00:08:00] in the ’50s and ’60s.

TT:  [00:08:03] I think they had a pretty good football program, if I’m not mistaken, real good, and, you know, whether they won state championships or not I don’t remember, but I know they were a very successful football team.

GG:  [00:08:21] And in 1959, so right about the same time that you were taking over, the U.S. District Court in Charlottesville said that [they had to?] enroll small numbers of Black students.  And some of the white students, including athletes, quit at Lane, and went to the new Rock Hill Academy.

TT:  [00:08:52] That’s right, Rock Hill Academy opened up, and, you know, integration took place, [00:09:00] and basically the reason they went, they didn’t want to go, was Black students.  And, of course, all that eventually changed, and was total integration, so that all changed.

GG:  [00:09:16] So we know that in 1959 a certain number of Lane students left for Rock Hill Academy.

TT:  [00:09:23] Rock Hill, right.

GG:  [00:09:25] After that first year, that first transition, did you lose many other students to Rock Hill?

TT:  [00:09:33] Great number, yeah.  Yeah, Rock Hill was actually a pretty big school.

GG:  [00:09:40] So what was your secret of building a winning football program with good athletes, some of them going up the street?

TT:  [00:09:52] Yeah, I don’t know.  We lost a lot of good players to Rock Hill, and, [00:10:00] you know, what kind of seasons we actually had during that time, I’m not sure, but I think we were still fairly successful, and after even losing the number of kids to Rock Hill.

GG:  [00:10:18] Yeah, from ’62 to ’67 you were certainly very successful.

TT:  [00:10:23] I was?  Okay.  I don’t remember.  (laughter)

DS:  [00:10:26] During the win streak.

TT:  [00:10:29] Was that during the win streak?

DS:  [00:10:30] Yeah, ’62 through ’67.

TT:  [00:10:34] Oh my God.  Okay.  We were integrated at that time, and, yeah, we went almost over five years undefeated.  So we had a great football program.

GG:  [00:10:58] Did Burley ever play [00:11:00] against Lane?

TT:  [00:11:01] No.  And Burley had pretty good football teams, but we never played against each other.

GG:  [00:11:11] Was that a decision made by the coaches, or was that a decision made by someone else someplace?

TT:  [00:11:19] I think it’s someone else.  I think the administration made that decision, school administration, and I think that they made the decision.  I know I didn’t have anything to do with it, I don’t think, and, again, we lost a lot, a lot of kids to Rock Hill.

GG:  [00:11:51] But not enough to keep you from winning.

TT:  [00:11:53] No, no.

GG:  [00:11:58] Were there [00:12:00] Black players who you wanted on the Lane team who were refused permission to join the team by school administrators?

TT:  [00:12:11] Yeah.  Again, I remember taking a number of Black kids to the administration -- this is before integration took place -- then they turned them down.  They wouldn’t let ’em play.

GG:  [00:12:26] So what did you do?  How did you react to that?

TT:  [00:12:29] You know, I have a hard time remembering, and, of course, I was disappointed, because I wanted them to play for me, and the administration turned them down, and they couldn’t.  And I think later on we integrated all the schools, so I actually got the Black kids into the program.

GG:  [00:13:00] And do you remember what year that was?

TT:  [00:13:03] No, I don’t.

DS:  [00:13:05] The state championship team in 1963 I recall had three or four Black players, couple of brothers, right?

TT:  [00:13:16] The Woodfolk brothers.

DS:  [00:13:17] Woodfolk brothers, and maybe...  I think there were four.

GG:  [00:13:25] Yes, that was 1963.

DS:  [00:13:26] Yeah.

GG:  [00:13:31] So when Black players were finally permitted to play for Lane, what problems --

TT:  [00:13:41] Really...  (coughs) You know, we really didn’t have a problem, and I think why that was, all the kids that wanted to play, everybody basically wanted to win football games, so it really didn’t make any difference [00:14:00] whether they were Black or White; let’s just win football games.  And we went through that, and I was fortunate I got some real, real good players.

GG:  [00:14:17] There were some situations reported by players where people trash talked, sometimes people in the spectator stands talked trash to the Black players that came in.  Were the coaches preparing the kids for that?

TT:  [00:14:41] No, really, I don’t know.  I don’t know what was going on as far as the spectators were concerned, but as far as the Black students and the Black players and so on, they got along great.  Really did.  All they wanted to do was win football games.  And as far as the integration was concerned, it didn’t [00:15:00] bother them at all.  (coughs)

GG:  [00:15:07] Let’s take a little break.  Get some water.

DS:  [00:15:11] You want a cough drop or water or anything?

TT:  [00:15:13] Huh?

DS:  [00:15:14] You want a cough drop or some water?

TT:  [00:15:16] No, I’m fine.

PL:  [00:15:16] George, it would be interesting to know what Coach recalls about who came to games.

[Extraneous material redacted]

CATHY [THEODOSE?]:  [00:16:30] You should...  Just a thought, but maybe it should be covered that, since we’re going into integration so much, is when they were at away games, that they would stop to eat someplace, and if they wouldn’t accept the Black people they moved on to other places, and it got to be where they called ahead, because they wanted the Blacks to eat in the kitchen and the whites to eat in the restaurant --

TT:  [00:16:59] I’ll (inaudible) --

CT:  [00:16:59] So then they started [00:17:00] calling ahead to make sure everybody could be together.

TT:  [00:17:05] Yeah, I remember going to different restaurants and they turned us down ’cause we had Black players, so I wouldn’t go there, try to find places to take everybody.   But we went through that quite a while, so...

PL:  [00:17:22] Lorenzo, do you have questions you want to get on the tape here?

TT:  [00:17:25] But I wasn’t about to...

LORENZO DICKERSON:  [00:17:26] Yes, I have, like, three.  Yeah, I do.

PL:  [00:17:30] Okay.  (laughs)

LD:  [00:17:31] I do.

PL:  [00:17:31] (inaudible) --

LD:  [00:17:33] Yeah.

CT:  [00:17:40] And I know of one altercation that happened after a game that the other team’s fans came after him with bats and clubs and stuff.

PL:  [00:17:49] Oh my goodness.  Oh, let’s talk about this.

CT:  [00:17:51] And the police had to intervene.  They came after Tommy; I don’t think they went after the other players.

PL:  [00:17:58] (inaudible)?  [00:18:00] What was the (inaudible)?

F1:  [00:18:02] They were playing against an all-white team, and, of course, they won, so...

DS:  [00:18:08] I think you might hear it out of Foussekis or [Tommy] Pace or whomever.  I mean, I think...  I remember stories, hearing about stories about Lane pulling out of schools in the capitol district, which was all Richmond schools, pulling out, having the bus pelted with rocks and sticks and whatever, you know, just --

PL:  [00:18:28] Because they were playing all white teams in Richmond area.

DS:  [00:18:31] Right.  Or all Black teams.  I mean, I think there were a couple, you know...  Maggie Walker was, I think, historically a Black high school.  TJ, maybe, Armstrong.  Armstrong and Maggie Walker are two that come to mind.  But I can say it’s not a shocker to me that he would call ahead to go to a place that wasn’t [00:19:00] segregated.

PL:  [00:19:05] So, George, Kathy was just talking about when they were on the road, you know, one of the things that happened in terms of being IN restaurants and where they would stop or not, so I think that’s a good question to get on the record, and then any altercations, you know, after games and all.  So there clearly were some, so...  Yeah, great.

GG:  [00:19:34] Tommy, when you traveled on the road, as a team, did you have any trouble getting service, food service, for the Black players?  Were there --

TT:  [00:19:46] Oh, yeah.  We...  To go to restaurants and eat after the ballgames were the real problems.  A lot of restaurants wouldn’t take us because we had a Black athlete, and [00:20:00] what I would do, I’d drive, or we’d drive around till we found a restaurant that would take everybody.  But that was a real problem back then.

GG:  [00:20:16] With Charlottesville, with two schools with good football programs, did you get in each other’s way on Friday nights?

TT:  [00:20:29] Did what?

GG:  [00:20:30] Did you get in each other’s way on Friday nights, between Burley and your schedule?  Did you ever schedule games the same night?

TT:  [00:20:39] Oh.  Oh, yeah.  I think so.  I think we both played on the same nights, and I think that went on all the time.

GG:  [00:20:52] And who got more spectators?

TT:  [00:20:57] You know, I’m not sure.  [00:21:00] Barely, I think, probably we did, and...  Because what had happened, you know, Burley was a Black school, and we were the white school.  We had more students, and so therefore we had more of a crowd.

GG:  [00:21:24] When did Burley stop fielding a football team?

TT:  [00:21:31] When they integrated.  Burley had (inaudible) all the time, you know, before integration took place, they had their own program, and we had our own program.  And, you know, as I recall, Burley had some real good football teams.  [00:22:00] But we never played each other.

GG:  [00:22:09] So were you -- apart from restaurants --

TT:  [00:22:14] Huh?

GG:  [00:22:15] Apart from restaurants, did you have any problems at all getting service for your Black players?

TT:  [00:22:24] Yeah, yeah, we did, because we had to go from restaurant to restaurant.  I had to find a restaurant where they would accept everybody.  And a lot of times we’d go in a restaurant and they wouldn’t accept the Black athletes, and we would leave and find a restaurant that would take everybody.  So that was a real problem.

GG:  [00:22:49] Now, who came to the away games?  Did you have fans who followed you on the road?

TT:  [00:22:59] Yeah, we had [00:23:00] some.  We had Black fans and we had White fans, and, you know, they’d get on...  They’d have a bus, and, you know, they would pay for it and go to the games.

GG:  [00:23:24] Who was coaching the Black players at Burley?

TT:  [00:23:28] God...  Oh, God.

DS:  [00:23:31] Was it A.P. Moore?

TT:  [00:23:33] Could...  I think it was A.P. Moore, yeah.  I believe.

GG:  [00:23:39] And did you all have any interaction?

TT:  [00:23:41] Huh?

GG:  [00:23:42] Did you have any interaction with him?

TT:  [00:23:45] With him, as I can recall, you know, I did.  We got along fine.  We didn’t see that much of each other, but when we did, we got along fine.

GG:  [00:23:57] One former player [00:24:00] raised a concern, just in conversation, about how the weakness of the Virginia football program in the ’50s and ’60s made it very, very tough for anybody who played at UVA to be recruited by a professional team.  Do you remember players who you thought would have professional prospects but who didn’t?

TT:  [00:24:43] I have a hard time remembering that.  I don’t know, but I’m sure I had a number of them.  You know, Virginia had some hard times back in those days, and [00:25:00] I had a couple players that went on scholarship, but not many.

GG:  [00:25:09] And what was the reason for Virginia having tough times?  Was it lack of commitment to a winning football team, or what was it?

TT:  [00:25:24] I think basically reputation.  Virginia didn’t have great programs, and so, you know, trying to recruit the top players is difficult.

GG:  [00:25:39] So, overall, what do you think the effect of football was on helping to smooth out race relations in the late ’50s, early ’60s?

TT:  [00:25:55] Well, we were segregated, [00:26:00] you know, of course...  I think basically there was Burley and there was Charlottesville, and the two schools really -- I mean, we didn’t play against each other or anything like that, but I think we got along fine.  I think the players knew each other, and so on.  They got along fine, and wasn’t any problems there.  But then, when we integrated, wasn’t any problem at all, because they blend in right together, because the main thing, they all wanted to win football games and that was the bottom line.  Integration, you know, far as they were concerned didn’t even exist.

GG:  [00:26:48] Looking back on your career as a coach, what were your proudest moments?

TT:  [00:27:00] Well, we won a state championship.  That was one.  And the biggest part was we won 53 straight games.  Well, we had 51 and two ties, so we went 53 games without losing, and that, by far, was our greatest moment.

GG:  [00:27:28] What was your greatest disappointment?

TT:  [00:27:33] That’s a good question.

DS:  [00:27:36] You better not say David Sloan.  (laughter) Sorry, you can edit that out.

PL:  [00:27:43] I think it’s good.

TT:  [00:27:45] I don’t really remember, you know.  I know I had some, but I have a hard time remembering.

GG:  [00:27:55] Is there anything that you would like to discuss [00:28:00] that I haven’t brought up?

TT:  [00:28:03] Not really.  We...  The only thing I could say is when I was coaching I thoroughly enjoyed, and with the Black and White kids, as far as I was concerned, they were great.  And far as the Black and White kids playing, they got along great.  And then I think them playing together really helped integration.  I really do.  And...  But as far as I was concerned, they were good times.

GG:  [00:28:47] David, from the perspective of a player on one of Coach’s teams, where did you come up with the different [00:29:00] conclusion about how quickly the races were able to kind of get together in a friendly sort of way?

DS:  [00:29:08] Well, of course, I played ’70, ’71, ’72, so, you know, still tumultuous times in America, as far as civil rights goes, and integration, and there were several movements locally.  I’ll never forget Free Cherry Pie, (laughs) who was an activist.  And the Black side of that was Free Cherry Pie, and the white side was, “Where?  Where can we get free cherry pie?”  I mean, it was just clearly...  Didn’t know it then, but clearly it was racism that was a part of that.  And I can honestly say that playing for Coach Theodose, Coach Bingler, and their assistant coaches, that they viewed each person as a person, as a human being, and it did not matter whether you were White, Black, or...  Really, for that matter, they treated the guys who were first string the same way they treated [00:30:00] the guys who were fourth string.  I mean, there was...  You know, it was just...  It was a good spirit, and it was an eye-opener for me.  I’ll never forget, my dad was a police officer.  My mother was a secretary.  And we grew up in Belmont.  I grew up in Belmont, and very much a blue-collar, working-class part of town.  And never realized all this stuff until later in life, obviously.  You’re too young then; you’re just doing whatever you do as a teenager or whatever, but, you know, we had probably seven or eight Black guys on that team that I’m very close to even today, and if we’d had everybody, every Black student athlete that played at either Buford Middle School or Walker Middle School come to Lane High School to play, I think we would have started another 53-game winning streak.  There were some [00:31:00] great football players at Walker, and some good football players at Buford that didn’t play because of the climate, the climate with civil rights and massive resistance and all the rest of the aftershocks from the ’60s.  But I can laugh and joke and say, in a probably half-serious tone, that had some of those guys come I may not have ever played.  I don’t know.  So, anyway, never got a thing, never once did I ever feel...  In fact, we often thought Coach Theodose in particular was partial to Black athletes, ’cause he’d had the likes of Kent Merritt and Bonnie Wicks and Clyde [Greenly?], and guys that were really exceptional, exceptional high school football players, and many of them went on and played in college.

F1:  [00:31:51] And the pros.

DS:  [00:31:53] What’s that?

F1:  [00:31:53] And the pros.

DS:  [00:31:55] And pros, yeah.

GG:  [00:31:58] There are well-documented examples [00:32:00] of UVA students not reacting well to desegregation of the players.  There are stories.  There are pictures of UVA students carrying Confederate flags, and singing Dixie, and doing things when some of the Black players came out, with a malicious intent.

DS:  [00:32:24] Absolutely.

GG:  [00:32:25] Can you talk some about...?

DS:  [00:32:28] Yeah, my first year at UVA, the first four African American student athletes to sign scholarships to play at Virginia -- it’s hard to believe, 51 years ago; in the grand scheme of things, that’s recent history -- Harrison Davis, Stanley Land, John Rainey, and Kent Merritt, who was a Lane High School football player.  And I can remember, the year before I went to UVA I remember going to a game on [00:33:00] Saturday afternoon, and you’re correct, the Confederate flags, singing Dixie, and Harrison Davis, who was an exceptional athlete, played in the NFL, was the first Black quarterback to take a snap at the University of Virginia.  And I can clearly remember him being jeered and booed.  And he came off the field, and he gave a hand gesture that a lot of us are familiar with, for better or for worse, to the students.  And that will be a day, I think, for anybody that has been going to Virginia football games forever, will forever be in their memory, of that reaction to him.  And, of course, having seen it then, where my brain was, where my state of mind was, was, gosh, that’s pretty harsh, he’s doing what he’s doing, but in retrospect I probably would have done the same thing, maybe worse, [00:34:00] if I were in his shoes.  I mean, it was just...  I hate to say it:  it was the way it was.  (laughs)

GG:  [00:34:08] It was the way it was.

DS:  [00:34:09] It was the way it was, and it’s just embarrassing to look back at that time period, even though I think athletics bridges that gap, bridged that gap for us.  I know that for sure.  And I’m sure today it’s...  I’m sure there’s some of that stuff still hanging around, that old stuff, but I think these guys were trailblazers back in the ’60s and ’70s, and looked at you as a football player and not as a Black kid or a white kid, or...

GG:  [00:34:43] They didn’t look at me as a football player.  (laughter)

DS:  [00:34:45] Yeah, well, if you were playing, if you were on the team.

PL:  [00:34:50] David, do you remember what the coaches’ reactions were to that gesture?  Did anything happen within the [00:35:00] team because of that, or anything said?

DS:  [00:35:02] Yeah, well, I wasn’t on the team, so that was...  So Harrison and Kent and John and Stan were fourth year when I was first year, so that was probably Harrison’s...

PL:  [00:35:20] Third year.

DS:  [00:35:21] I’m trying to think if it was his second or third year, ’cause I believe when he came they still had a freshman football team that he would have played on.  So when I was there in the fall of ’73, Harrison was a senior.  By then he’d been moved to wide receiver, which is where he played in the NFL.  So I don’t know what the reaction was.

LD:  [00:35:49] Before I ask my questions, let me (inaudible)... 

PL:  [00:36:00] I wonder, also, if we should get David to sort of just, for the record, to clarify who Cherry Pie was.  (laughter) I mean, we...

GG:  [00:36:10] We’ll come back to that.

PL:  [00:36:12] Good idea.  I don’t understand that.

LD:  [00:36:17] So I just had a couple of questions, two or three, and this one’s actually for both Coach and David.  If the two of you could just situate us:  Lane High School, we now know it as the Albemarle County Office Building, but if you could just situate us as to where the field was, where you actually played at the school.

TT:  [00:36:41] Well, Lane is, of course, now Albemarle County Building, and we played our home games right there, and had the field, and we had the main field and [00:37:00] practice field, and that’s where we did everything.

F1:  [00:37:05] (whispering) It’s now a parking lot.

LD:  [00:37:07] That’s right.  And next question was just that 1963 was probably the most important year for race relations in this country.  We’ve got the march on Washington, and Dr. King came to UVA, and Albemarle County started to desegregate schools.  What do you remember?  You were probably a kid, David.

DS:  [00:37:28] Eight.  (laughter)

LD:  [00:37:29] Yeah.  What do you remember of that time period here in Charlottesville, in ’63, in the early to mid-’60s?  What was the climate like, locally?

TT:  [00:37:43] Football-wise, it was great.  I mean, you know, other places besides the schools were having all kind of problems with integration, but [00:38:00] with our football program, I guess the bottom line is the only thing those kids playing wanted to do was win.  They didn’t care whether they were Black or White.  And so as far as that relationship, I mean, it was great.

DS:  [00:38:24] As an eight-year-old, I don’t remember much, but as a high school student I remember, I mean, clearly racism was abundant.

TT:  [00:38:35] Yeah.

DS:  [00:38:35] Still abundant, but on a less in-your-face method or manner.  My mother was from Red Hill, so southern Albemarle County, and was part of a large...  She wasn’t from a large family, but her mother, my grandmother, was from a very large family.  And I know...  And my dad was a [00:39:00] police officer, and whether this is fair or not police officers primarily dealt with people that had less to get by on, and were more inclined to create problems, and not necessarily Black or White but I think it’s safe to say, if we look at today, with the treatment of some of the George Floyds of the world, that existed.  That existed probably at a higher level.  But I think back then we were...  I remember playing a tackle football game at Belmont Park against all the Black kids from Ridge Street, and we had cleats, and they had tennis shoes.  Most of us had cleats, not all of us.  In fact, a couple of kids on the Belmont team -- and we were probably ten years old.  And it was a great football game.  (laughter) I remember that game distinctly.  And they were amazed that we had [00:40:00] cleats, and a couple of kids even had the old Johnny U high-top cleats, you know, and they referred to ’em as combat boots, essentially.  (laughter) So we were very aware that we were white and they weren’t, but my mother, to give you an example, knew that many of the Black kids on our Lane High School football team did not have the luxury of taking a soaking wet uniform from an early morning practice in August, of taking that to the laundromat.  It wasn’t going to happen.  So she made me pack ’em up in a mesh bag, and I would bring, like, eight uniforms home, plus mine, for her to wash between practices.  And so I’d like to think that despite my dad being a police officer, and being from Franklin County, I’d like to think that that’s where athletics bridged the gap, for me, plus having parents [00:41:00] that had their generational thoughts, their generational grudges, whatever they’re called, but didn’t let it interfere with me growing up with that in my heart.

PL:  [00:41:16] David, in describing that game that you just described, who would have organized a game like that?

DS:  [00:41:23] It was done at school.  You know, it was done --

PL:  [00:41:25] So it was a school-based thing, which --

DS:  [00:41:27] Yeah, it was done at school, and we didn’t have, you know, the...  I didn’t realize this until we had this group last summer that sat around and talked about our experiences as baby boomers coming through the ’50s and ’60s with regards to race, but a Black friend of mine from junior high school all the way through high school and today told a story about growing up on the east side of Ridge Street versus the west side, and the east side of Ridge Street went to Clark Elementary School, which is the Belmont School, and the west side went to [00:42:00] Johnson.  And Johnson happened to draw, you know, from a lot of university professors’ families and so forth, so it was a little more enlightened when it came to race.  We were pretty much, like, you know, you don’t associate with Black people.  You know, that’s not part of the deal.  So I think a couple of the guys that grew up on the east side of Ridge Street organized a team to come over and play, and probably just through casual conversation about playing, and it was a great game.  It was a lot of fun.  I don’t think anybody paid that much attention to whether you were Black or white, to be honest with you, but that was 56 years ago.  It was a long time ago, but...  Okay, yeah, (inaudible).  So anyway, that’s my two cents’ worth on...  When you grew up in Charlottesville, Virginia, [00:43:00] and you were a football player, or someone who thought you were a football player, or you wanted to be a football player, you wanted to play for Lane High School.  You didn’t want to play for Vince Lombardi and the Packers.  You didn’t want to play for Bear Bryant or anybody else.  When you were a kid in this town, you wanted to play for Lane High School.

GG:  [00:43:21] But you got recruited by Bear.

DS:  [00:43:23] I did.  (laughter) You know, I think I flew down there on a cargo plane, you know, (laughter) so it wasn’t a blue chip visit, I promise you.  Not by today’s standard.  But I was fortunate to have...  And I’ll give Coach Theodose total credit.  I was playing baseball for Joe Bingler, who was his assistant coach and defensive coordinator, and he came up to me after my sophomore year and he said, “You might want to give up baseball.”  And I was thinking of doing that anyway, because Bingler was trying to make me a catcher, [00:44:00] and I didn’t want to be a catcher.  And he said, “I think you have a shot at playing college football, and running track would be beneficial to your speed.”  And so I switched over, and I ran track, ran 100-220 in a 440.  So I will give him credit for...  Plus, there was no coach -- people say, “How was Sonny Randle as a coach?”  There was no coach, no coach that I ever had in college that was any tougher to play for than him.  I mean, he had his...  he had his expectations.

PL:  [00:44:42] So I actually wanted to ask, if I can just intervene...  I wanted to ask you:  what was your strategy for getting people, you know, to perform so well?  What kinds of things did you do as a coach that helped that team be such a [00:45:00] winning team?

TT:  [00:45:03] Well, I think one thing was as far as the players, I was able to communicate with them.  And --

PL:  [00:45:11] Tell us more about that.

TT:  [00:45:13] Well, I emphasized, you know...  I basically didn’t emphasize one group over another group.  I treated everybody the same, and they accepted it, and, you know, if you were gonna play for me, that’s the way it was going to be.  Everybody, you know...  Everybody would play basically the same, and not have individuals playing, and so...

PL:  [00:45:44] But David says you were tough.

TT:  [00:45:46] Well, I really was --

PL:  [00:45:47] I want to know how you were tough.  (laughs)

TT:  [00:45:49] -- and I give the kids that I had the credit.  I had a number of people who had kids maybe that quit, but overall [00:46:00] they responded very well.  And I was, I was real tough.  But if you’re gonna play for me, that’s the way it was gonna be.

PL:  [00:46:13] What does that mean, “real tough”?  Did you make them do lots of drills?  Did you --

TT:  [00:46:16] Running, running and...  Over...  Well, I guess, overtraining them.  But just, you know --

DS:  [00:46:34] That’s a good word.  (laughs)

TT:  [00:46:35] Just keeping ’em going all the time, and not (inaudible) giving ’em a break or anything, but just working ’em as hard as I could.  That’s --

PL:  [00:46:49] How would you respond to the ways in which he was tough?

DS:  [00:46:55] I think he’s right on the money.  I mean, I don’t think he treated the Kent Merritts of the world [00:47:00] any different than he treated some of the other guys that didn’t play.  You knew, and you’d heard stories before you started at Lane High School about this, and there was a quitters list in the locker room, and you did not want your name on that quitters list.  I mean, it was just the way it was.  Don’t ask me what drove those of us that survived it to get through it, but I bet if you ask down to a man everybody that came through there at that time period, they would tell you they would not do it any differently, that they have no regrets looking back.  And I coached a little bit of high school football at Albemarle 10 or 12 years ago, and I used to stand back there.  They had unlimited water breaks.  They had scheduled water breaks.  They didn’t take salt tablets, that I’m aware of.  They didn’t drink their water out of their helmets.  [00:48:00] (laughter) There were just things that he jokes about off camera, but there were things he would say that if he were coaching today the way he coached then, he would be in jail.  (laughter) And he’s probably right.  But it was a thing -- it was like, must be like a Marine that makes it through basic training, and that’s the way I always looked at it.  And when the chips were down, that’s what a team is, and that’s what he did.  He built a team, and I’ll never forget a speech he gave playing James Monroe in Fredericksburg, and we were losing in a season where we were ranked number one in the state preseason, and we ended up losing to the state champion, I think, seven to six or something like that, at Lane, and ended up being seven and three, which is still not bad, but we had a really, really good team, a talented team, [00:49:00] and we were losing to James Monroe, ’cause it was the last game of the year, and nobody really...  At that point a lot of guys had packed it in, and...  I can’t describe it to you.  You remember the TV detective Columbo, and he wore a wrinkled raincoat, you know, khaki, wrinkled raincoat?  And I will never, ever forget -- and I’m still just a sophomore; I’m playing, but I’m still just a sophomore on a team with these giants, these legends, the way I looked at ’em -- and he walked, paced back and forth in that locker room, in that raincoat.  And I can’t describe it to you, other than Coach Theodose had a way of his hands, he had a way of having his hands, and he had those hands going back and forth.  And he gave us a half time motivational speech, and I think we came out in the second half and pretty much annihilated James Monroe.  (laughter) So he had a great motivation, you know...

PL:  [00:49:56] Strategy.

DS:  [00:49:56] He was done with us.  I mean, you know, basically everybody could’ve said, “Look, we don’t have to see you...”  [00:50:00] The seniors could say, “We don’t have to see you ever again if we don’t want to.”  The rest of us knew we had to, probably.  But he was fair, and he was tough, and he was all the things that a coach needed to be in that stretch of time.

GG:  [00:50:24] Coach do you have anything you want to add?

TT:  [00:50:28] No, the only thing is I...  I’m glad I went into coaching.  I enjoyed it.  And I enjoyed the kids that I had, and I enjoyed the sacrifices that they made, so...  The ones, like I said, I was coaching were certainly outstanding.  I really, really enjoyed.

GG:  [00:50:56] Well, they apparently all loved you.  They’re still saying great things [00:51:00] about you.

TT:  [00:51:01] Well, I’m glad I don’t have to defend myself.  (laughter)

GG:  [00:51:08] [Is there?] anything else?

DS:  [00:51:10] No.

PL:  [00:51:10] Lorenzo?  Do you still have questions, Lorenzo?

LD:  [00:51:13] No.  No, I don’t.

PL:  [00:51:15] I have one question, if I can, and then we’ll probably call it a day.  Do you remember any pushback from the parents about Black and White kids playing together?  Do you remember any reactions from parents to...?

TT:  [00:51:30] Oh, the only thing that I really remember when it first integrated, and so on, how well they got together.  They really did.  And the reason for it, it wasn’t ’cause they were Black and White; they all had the same goal:  they wanted to win football games.  So worrying about Black and White, it never came into play.  They just wanted to win football games.

DS:  [00:52:00] At least in Charlottesville, but you probably had some times on the road.  If you went to Richmond, maybe they thought you were, you know...  I don’t know what words to use, but they probably thought you were a liberal hippie because you had Black guys on your team.

TT:  [00:52:22] Yeah.  Oh, yeah.

DS:  [00:52:24] A radical.

TT:  [00:52:25] Yeah.  No, but like I said, I certainly didn’t have any trouble with...  Like I said, the kids that I had, whether they were Black or White, I enjoyed them.

GG:  [00:52:38] Well, thank you all very much.

DS:  [00:52:40] Certainly.

TT:  [00:52:40] Thank you.  Appreciate it.

DS:  [00:52:41] Thank you.  [I hope that?]...

GG:  [00:52:41] It’s important.  Important history.

TT:  [00:52:46] Well, it’s history, no question about that, so...

PL:  [00:52:50] But it’s an important piece of our local understanding, you know, that does impact today.  I mean, it’s history, but it’s [00:53:00] very important, I think.

GG:  [00:53:01] Who was Cherry Pie?

PL:  [00:53:03] That’s right, that’s what I wanted...  (laughs)

DS:  [00:53:04] I cannot remember Cherry Pie’s name, but I do remember being on the downtown mall one day with someone who knew Cherry Pie, and he walked by.  So Cherry Pie was a militant --

GG:  [00:53:19] Yeah, I remember.

DS:  [00:53:20] -- and militants, you know, at any point in time, aren’t necessarily revered by the general public.  And he was, you know, a Black Panther, militant.  I mean, his...  For Charlottesville.  You know, he was probably D league compared to (laughter) some of the other guys that were doing what they were doing in America at the time.  But Cherry Pie was putting forth his agenda for the Black population, and doing it in a militant way, which, in the ’60s, was not received very well, as I’m sure you know.

GG:  [00:53:58] Yeah, I think that was late ’60s, early ’70s, yeah.

DS:  [00:54:00] It was.  It was late ’60s.  It was late ’60s, early ’70s, and painted all over Charlottesville was “Free Cherry Pie.”

PL:  [00:54:14] Lorenzo, remind us of the given name of Cherry Pie.

LD:  [00:54:20] I cannot remember the given name of Cherry Pie, but the person who you would contact to find that out --

PL:  [00:54:26] We have it, but I just don’t remember.

LD:  [00:54:27] -- it would be Alex-Zan.

PL:  [00:54:30] Oh, AleX...  Oh.

GG:  [00:54:32] No --

DS:  [00:54:32] Well, I tell you who will know, too:  when you talk to Jimmy Hollins.

LD:  [00:54:36] Yeah, Jimmy will know.

DS:  [00:54:37] Jimmy will know.

PL:  [00:54:38] For sure.  Okay.

DS:  [00:54:42] And, by the way, you know this already -- I mean, Jimmy will tell you -- so I’m somehow involved with this Burley restoration project, to bring the baseball field back to a community centerpiece, and also [00:55:00] have a Black wall of fame.  They’re going to have Black athletes at Burley.  I think it’s just going to be focused on Burley.  That will be a part of this.  It’s going to be a functioning baseball field, but it’s also going to be a centerpiece for the African American community right there in the Rose Hill Drive neighborhood.  And it’s coming along nicely, actually.  So Jimmy Hollins and Donald Byers, and William -- and I can’t ever remember William’s last name, but William worked at Eljo’s and Ed Michtom’s.  He always wore a bowtie.  Just a classic looking --

GG:  [00:55:48] Tall guy.

DS:  [00:55:49] Tall, skinny guy.  Just a classy -- salt-and-pepper.

PL:  [00:55:51] Jose -- was that...?

LD:  [00:55:52] William Redd?

F1:  [00:55:53] [Josiah?] Williams?

DS:  [00:55:55] No, his first name was William.

LD:  [00:55:57] William Redd, two D’s.

DS:  [00:55:59] You know him.  Okay.  [00:56:00] And then two other guys who I can’t remember, but I’ve seen ’em.  They were around Lane High School football when I played, you know, as spectators.  These guys are late seventies, early eighties, and they’ll be a wealth of knowledge about it, I’m pretty sure, but Jimmy Hollins will know.  And then Burley actually had a team one year that was un-scored upon, so it was probably a good thing Lane didn’t play, because they must have been pretty good.  And I think they had a guy -- and you’ll hear all this -- I think they had a guy that played center that would come out of the huddle -- and I don’t think I ever went to a Burley game.  Maybe one.  I mean, it really was separate back in that time period.  And...  But he would --

GG:  [00:56:47] Came out of the huddle and what’d he do?

DS:  [00:56:49] He’d do a flip.  He would come out of the huddle.  Before he bent down to put his hands on the ball, he would do a flip and land.  He had it down...  (laughter) Simone Biles has nothing on this guy.  He would do a flip out of the huddle, and come right down on the ball, and be ready to snap.  But they had a team one year that no one scored a point on ’em.  Anyway.

GG:  [00:57:14] Okay.

DS:  [00:57:15] All right.

GG:  [00:57:15] We’ve kept you all long enough.

DS:  [00:57:17] Good deal.

TT:  [00:57:18] Ah, okay.

PL:  [00:57:18] Thank you so much.

TT:  [00:57:19] Well, thank you for coming over.  Appreciate it.

[Extraneous material redacted.]

 

END OF VIDEO FILE